I'll abstain from voting on most of these points, but in thinking about the cost of Hoosiers - are they really that much more expensive than coilovers?

The points of a mod have to be based on both the maximum potential performance increase AND the projected cost for the performance increase at that price level - we can't make Dave's top-of-the-line Motons worth more points than Aaron's Ground Controls. With the difficulty already in assigning points of a mod in general, forget about doing it on a part-by-part basis.

That being said, a "good" set of coilovers is going to cost you a minimum of $3-4k. Rylan's finding the barely-used Ohlins for a bargain was not the norm. So let's do the math, using sfphinkter's Mugen coilovers ($3300) as an example.
Set of Hoosiers: $800
Set of Kumhos: $650
Hoosier lifespan: I got 4 days on my A-compounds, though they corded after 3. Roadracers probably would have made it 4 days.
Kumhos lifespan: Let's say 50% longer than Roadracers, 6 days. That they can be driven to/from the track is a convenience bonus.
Hoosier $/track day: $200
Kumho $/track day: ~$110
Difference: $90/track day

So by this math, it would take 3300/90=36+ track days for the two to balance out. I've only done 13 track days my whole life, spread out over the last 16 months. Most people probably only do 3-6 days per year, with only the most hardcore junkies doing 12 or more. At that pace it'd take 3 years to make up the difference in tires, by which time the shocks would probably be due for an expensive rebuild anyway.

Lastly, it has to be decided if there is to be a points consideration for "impact on streetability". Hoosiers do nothing to decrease the everyday livability of the car, whereas a proper set of race coilovers on a car are going to make it much less comfortable on the street.
...
In the end, it doesn't matter a whole lot to me. To borrow an old SportsCenter line:
JZR: You can't stop him, you can only hope to ban him!

 

1) Hoosiers 100 Coilovers 75

2) Hoosiers+ coilovers banned in Mod.

3) Wing 30. Active Wing 40 and only allowed in pro.

4) 2 pro and 3 novice classes.

Since this is getting close to being implemented I have another point to bring up. It's related to the novice/pro classes. As I understand it the plan is to put someone in novice if they're not running times within say 5-10% of the best time that day. This could cause someone to get some points in the pro series and some in the novice series if, on any given day, they weren't running with the leaders. This could take them out of contention in both series. Let's make sure we don't create a new problem while trying to solve a different one.

 

My head spins with all the configurations/proposals.

My only comment:
I'll go along with what you guys decide. I think wings/active wings should be allowed in MOD for 2004. Rationale: You may do some events outside of Speedventures, and you may have to beat some yahoos with Skylines/V8/V10 motors. Active Wing can help you outside of Speedventures events. If you ban it from Speedventures Mod classes, then no one may run an Active Wing again. Progress doesn't march on, it stalls and dies out. Just raise the points sufficiently so no one can get the killer combo for MOD/Production that everyone is afraid of. (i.e. the "Ban Hayashi and JZR Rule").

Right now, the killer combo that everyone is afraid of in MOD/PROD is Hoosiers/Coilovers/Active Wing/Hayashi. Keeping JZR in the hunt with Hoosiers/Active wing/stock shocks seems okay, as the laptimes are close between him and the guys with Kumhos/coilovers/no wing. Banning Hoosiers and Coilovers from MOD/PROD isn't that bad, as those folks that want to run Hoosiers and Coilovers outside of Speedventures can just throw on their Hoosiers for those "other events".

-Doug

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Strike
[B]Since this is getting close to being implemented I have another point to bring up.

 

howmanypointsarebigassuglybrakes?

 

Shouldn't some consideration be taken into the fact that there are daily-driven S2000's and then there are the non-daily drivers?

I mean big wings and active aero stuff is cool, but for a car that gets driven daily, it's kind of ridicolous. Big wings should def. stay in unlimited.

Question: would a Brabham style fan be outlawed?

I think it would be nice if the rules would cater towards the kind of mods that would keep your car at least somewhat streetable, or else have the unlimited group which is all out.

It would be fair to say that the objective here is to get as many people involved as possible, and to give them a place to race that is grassroots, but well organized and fun. If most of your rulebook is dedicated to slicks, BAUW, movable aerofoils, Hoosiers etc. -- people get kind of intimitated.

I think dt is on the right track as far as trying to come up with a set of rules that promotes closer competition. How that gets implemented -- I have no idea.

All I'm saying is that a lot of people have done basic mods already. Coilovers and CAI's are commonplace these days, so items like that should be smaller point mods and something should be done with the tires -- that's all.
From there it would be much easier to fine tune the points system because a good foundation would already be in place.

 

All I know is that I've got:

Injen CAI ($225)
Mugen 31mm front sway bar ($300ish)
Spoon X-brace ($200ish)
Koni shocks ($800)
ghetto resonator-back straight pipe ($100)
RA1s on stock 16" wheels ($672/set/2 sets/yr)
R4 pads, stock calipers and rotors ($225)

Except for the CAI it's basically an autox setup and I'm pretty sure that except for some major mods is competitive with other S2000s. By major mods I mean forced induction, slicks, aerodynamics incl. hardtops wings, splitters and defusers.

The mods I have don't cost all that much, certainly not so much that someone who is willing to drop $150/day to drive on a track can affords. If they choose to buy and install them I'm certain they can. I'd like to see the largest # of people in one class. I know some will have superchargers, turbos, wings, motons or jrz coilovers but those are and should be rare.

I don't want to have to feel that I need to go out and spend thousands to race with the herd and have a competitive car. I propose the following:

"spec" class - SCCA street prepared and below. Modified to various extents but not substantially modified as compared to stock. Steel belted radial DOT tires only.
"modified" class - race prep/major mods more than SP allows. Any tire.
"novice" - anything allowed, finish within 20% of the top time in the real class get you a bump. 6 events total, then you bump. Bump to whatever class applies.

The points system is always going to be flawed and a constant source of debate. The SCCA has gone to enormous trouble to define classes and reinventing the wheel makes no sense. The SP classification is here http://www.moutons.org/sccasolo/Rules/sp.html#s14

The point system I think is a disservice and actually induces modifications rather than preventing them.

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by slick rick
[B]Shouldn't some consideration be taken into the fact that there are daily-driven S2000's and then there are the non-daily drivers?

I mean big wings and active aero stuff is cool, but for a car that gets driven daily, it's kind of ridicolous.

 

I still think what I propose (2 classes + novice) would provide the most competition. Solo ASP class allows for a lot of mods but none that so radically alter the performance that the different between bone stock and fully prepped that a really good driver couldn't drive both to within a second or two of each other. Obviously a bone stock stook couldn't compete with fully prepped but then again you are a bit nuts to think it could. If you want to compete then make some mods, there are lots of choices, and ones you can afford. You can drop 2K in mods and have a really quick car. VAFC is allowed, coilovers are allowed even an ECU is allowed. You can add cosmetic aero mods but no wings.

"innovation" is just upping the ante and the price. If you want to "innovate" then there is a class for that. If you want a streetable and basically stockish car then there is a class for that too. If you are a rookie then there is a class for that.

Drop the points and go with a well defined spec. If you meet it you are in one class. If you don't, you are in another. You guys are arguing from both sides of your mouth. On the on side you say that all the cars are competitive regardless of mods (LS times as an example) and on the other you say that there needs to be innovation which, on the other you say is of no real benefit.

I just want to compete against similar cars. I don't want to spend more than 2K to have my car be competitive. I don't want to argue about how much advantage a wing has or doesn't have. I don't want to feel I need to have one to compete driver to driver.

Please strongly consider dropping the points system and let's move on to the racing. Let SCCA maintain and argue the specs, that's what they do and why they exist. Not everyone will be happy either way so let's just take the simplest path.

 

At the risk of droning on and on:

"prepared" or "spec": an unmodified car prepared for the track. Amount of preparation varies but the car is essentially the same weight give or take and has the same power, give or take and the same aerodynamic profile as a stock car.

"modified": a car that has been changed from the original design in weight, power or aerodynamics or any combination thereof.

"novice": a class for inexperienced drivers. This is not a class for drivers that suck just drivers that don't have the exerience necessary to compete with the big boys. Once you get some experience then you aren't a novice anymore. Novice excludes any driver who has participated in 6 or more SV events, any driver holding an SCCA competition license or qualified to hold one, past or present.

Further I propose 3 run groups:

Red - Modified and Prepared "A"
White - Prepared "B"
Yellow - Novice

Prepared, likely to be the largest group, would be split into two groups to even out the volume of cars on the track depending on the volume.

Another point that Aaron should consider regarding my proposal is that it can be applied to all SV challenge series not just the S2000 series. You can also produce combined results which you can't do if every series has their own set of rules and classes. All the ASP cars can be compared. Same for BSP and CSP and so on. That's something I'd like to see in addition to the series results.

Point #2 is that cars preped for SV events can compete in SCCA events and SCCA classified events as well. That point has been brought up. If I modify my car to SV specs I can't compete in other non-SV events. If we use a well defined and fully sanctioned classification system then you can compete within class at other events outside of SV.