Speedventures classing input thread - #72
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 20,274
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From: Toronto, Canada
Aaron,
Your proposal still leaves us with 5 classes, way too many. I would like to see 1 novice class with no points total, only per event results. The idea of having "slow" classes and "fast" classes makes no sense.
Novice: Someone lacking experience.
not
Novice: Someone who is slow.
If you are slow then you shouldn't expect to win anything period. That's rediculous!
IMHO novice class should be for novices to compete in a friendly way with other novices. Forget splitting them into sub classes because that assumes that any mod is somehow going to make a novice driver faster. That's unlikely. There needs to be an experience limit. A cutoff where you've got enough experience to compete in the regular classes. I suggest 6 days or a racing school that qualifies you to compete (Skip Barber, Derek Daly, Bondurant, Bridgestone, and others which qualify you for an SCCA regional licence).
If we want everyone to be a winner then hand out door prizes. Winning on the track means being a better driver than everyone else on that day.
Rylan: Your speed based class makes me
Why don't we have a fastest of the bottom third award?
Your proposal still leaves us with 5 classes, way too many. I would like to see 1 novice class with no points total, only per event results. The idea of having "slow" classes and "fast" classes makes no sense.
Novice: Someone lacking experience.
not
Novice: Someone who is slow.
If you are slow then you shouldn't expect to win anything period. That's rediculous!
IMHO novice class should be for novices to compete in a friendly way with other novices. Forget splitting them into sub classes because that assumes that any mod is somehow going to make a novice driver faster. That's unlikely. There needs to be an experience limit. A cutoff where you've got enough experience to compete in the regular classes. I suggest 6 days or a racing school that qualifies you to compete (Skip Barber, Derek Daly, Bondurant, Bridgestone, and others which qualify you for an SCCA regional licence).
If we want everyone to be a winner then hand out door prizes. Winning on the track means being a better driver than everyone else on that day.
Rylan: Your speed based class makes me
Why don't we have a fastest of the bottom third award?
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 418
Likes: 0
From: Los Angeles
cthree,
I read the rules and it seems to me that the car one could build to max out those specs would cost a fortune. It's an extremely prepped car, as Jason said. I'm not sure why you think that classing would keep costs down, which you mentioned was your primary goal.
coilovers of any type ($5k)
any wheels ($2k)
any brakes (???)
any intake
any ECU, injectors, fuel rail or pump, ignition timing (huge bucks if you go to the limit and have someone tune it all for you).
Not only that, but it doesn't seem to allow for a lot of smaller insignificant mods that people already run.
KRAZIK: the point is to get as many autocrossers participating as possible, we're trying to steal business from the SCCA
. Just because they're not showing up now, they may later. Also, I can see your motivation: keep Rhoads out of the Challenge!!!
I read the rules and it seems to me that the car one could build to max out those specs would cost a fortune. It's an extremely prepped car, as Jason said. I'm not sure why you think that classing would keep costs down, which you mentioned was your primary goal.
coilovers of any type ($5k)
any wheels ($2k)
any brakes (???)
any intake
any ECU, injectors, fuel rail or pump, ignition timing (huge bucks if you go to the limit and have someone tune it all for you).
Not only that, but it doesn't seem to allow for a lot of smaller insignificant mods that people already run.
KRAZIK: the point is to get as many autocrossers participating as possible, we're trying to steal business from the SCCA
. Just because they're not showing up now, they may later. Also, I can see your motivation: keep Rhoads out of the Challenge!!!
Administrator
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 17,004
Likes: 7
From: Santa Cruz, CA, US
LOL, I don't want to keep anyone out. Especially Jason R.
My point is just that there aren't many auto-xers competing w/ us and we seem to spend a lot of time molding the classes around those people and not the ones who are actually running in the events currently.
My point is just that there aren't many auto-xers competing w/ us and we seem to spend a lot of time molding the classes around those people and not the ones who are actually running in the events currently.
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 418
Likes: 0
From: Los Angeles
cthree: the current points are listed on www.speedventures.net. go to Challenge Series and scroll down till you see S2000 classing.
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 418
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From: Los Angeles
OK folks. Here's an idea: We leave things pretty much as they are with a few changes (Hoosiers ok, but not allowed w/coilovers, up wing pts. to 30).
Re. Novice and STOCK classes: How about people can sign up as novices (self-selecting) provided they've done less than 6 events at SV. Someone who has done 20 race schools can lie anyway, it's up to them and there's nothing we can do about it; they probably won't have any fun stomping on beginners unless they're a total weirdo. We judge the Novice placing according to their listed mods. So if someone has a car that is the equivalent of an UNLIMITED-class car, they get handicapped. Handicapping could be based on percentage off of times from equivalent STOCK, MODIFIED, and UNLIMITED series cars. Whoever got the closest, percentage-wise to a STOCK, MOD-prepped or UNLIMITED-prepped car would win. If they get within a certain percentage we can force them to jump up out of the novice class.
This way of dealing with NOVICE would allow us to have 1 class instead of 3. The novice class shouldn't be deadly competitive anyway. Novice isn't really a competitive" class, it's just nice to be able to recognize the newbies and give them a trophy so they feel good and get them involved, so let's not worry about giving them fine gradations in classing. (I'm not sure what to do about guys like Silversurfer who want to run novice because they believe they have no hope of ever going fast. I guess it's just tough luck for them.)
The STOCK class should be a non-prize paying class. Trophies awarded like NOVICE, but no prize money. The reason here is that most serious drivers end up running track tires and such at some point. It's rare that a competitive driver stays in stock for long as they start craving track tires and coilovers, wings, etc. So let's make STOCK a competitive series, but not dilute the prize money from the two competitive/hot shoe series. Perhaps we can give out prizes, but not from the fund we're developing.
So, this would give us the following classification:
NOVICE (6 or less SV events, handicapped to determine 1st, 2nd, 3rd; trophies awarded.)
STOCK (non-prize paying, but competitive series):
Tires: up to 275 width rear tire, 120+ treadwear
Stock wheels only
Alignment
Re. Novice and STOCK classes: How about people can sign up as novices (self-selecting) provided they've done less than 6 events at SV. Someone who has done 20 race schools can lie anyway, it's up to them and there's nothing we can do about it; they probably won't have any fun stomping on beginners unless they're a total weirdo. We judge the Novice placing according to their listed mods. So if someone has a car that is the equivalent of an UNLIMITED-class car, they get handicapped. Handicapping could be based on percentage off of times from equivalent STOCK, MODIFIED, and UNLIMITED series cars. Whoever got the closest, percentage-wise to a STOCK, MOD-prepped or UNLIMITED-prepped car would win. If they get within a certain percentage we can force them to jump up out of the novice class.
This way of dealing with NOVICE would allow us to have 1 class instead of 3. The novice class shouldn't be deadly competitive anyway. Novice isn't really a competitive" class, it's just nice to be able to recognize the newbies and give them a trophy so they feel good and get them involved, so let's not worry about giving them fine gradations in classing. (I'm not sure what to do about guys like Silversurfer who want to run novice because they believe they have no hope of ever going fast. I guess it's just tough luck for them.)
The STOCK class should be a non-prize paying class. Trophies awarded like NOVICE, but no prize money. The reason here is that most serious drivers end up running track tires and such at some point. It's rare that a competitive driver stays in stock for long as they start craving track tires and coilovers, wings, etc. So let's make STOCK a competitive series, but not dilute the prize money from the two competitive/hot shoe series. Perhaps we can give out prizes, but not from the fund we're developing.
So, this would give us the following classification:
NOVICE (6 or less SV events, handicapped to determine 1st, 2nd, 3rd; trophies awarded.)
STOCK (non-prize paying, but competitive series):
Tires: up to 275 width rear tire, 120+ treadwear
Stock wheels only
Alignment
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 418
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From: Los Angeles
a quick re-Hash:
NOVICE: run for fun, learn to drive on track, get trophies
STOCK: competitive for people starting out, get trophies, and maybe some prizes of some kind.
MODIFIED: well-prepped, but not too highly-prepped track cars; trophies, prize-paying for competitors on a budget.
UNLIMITED: highly prepped cars, trophies, prize-paying.
NOVICE: run for fun, learn to drive on track, get trophies
STOCK: competitive for people starting out, get trophies, and maybe some prizes of some kind.
MODIFIED: well-prepped, but not too highly-prepped track cars; trophies, prize-paying for competitors on a budget.
UNLIMITED: highly prepped cars, trophies, prize-paying.
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,677
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From: Upland, CA
Originally posted by desert tortoise
BITTERMAN ROLLBAR -40 (gives incentive to get best brand of most important safety equipment)
BITTERMAN ROLLBAR -40 (gives incentive to get best brand of most important safety equipment)
I've been watching this thread closely because I really would like to start road racing some day. However, it's starting to look like there may be some major conflict-of-interest issues w/ the rule-making for SV.
Outsider, signing off.