How about classes based 100% on time, and not mods.

Fast Class = x
Slighly Less Fast Class (x-5%)
Average Class (x-10%)
Noobie Class (x-15%)

Or something.

 

put me in noobie class.

 

KRAZIK, FLUXEN RE: the active wing vs. fixed wing. I personally like the idea of having our series be different from the rest by allowing for interesting and creative modifications. I wouldnt' want to see them banned. Whether they should be banned from some classes and not others, is a different question. I think the answer to this question will come down to what sort of system we decide upon.

That said, my hunch is that it would be better to ban active wings starting next year in MOD. Obviously they would be allowed in unlimited. The reason for this re Hayashi's comment is that (a la Rhoads) a trunk lid costs $150 and you could put your adjustable wing on a separate trunk lid whenever you need to stomp on some Vipers. Put on the non-adjustable one for SV events. Shouldn't cost much compared to the cost of the crazy-ass adjustable wing anyway. For non-SV events the Hoosiers and the active wing could be swapped on quite easily (a la JZR).
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RE JZR's analysis of Hoosier costs. Here's been my experience:
The Hoosier Road Race compound ($850) last me 2-4 track days. 4 at the most if alignment and everything is set up perfectly and I don't screw up (we're not all perfect drivers ). RA-1's ($650) last me 10 days or more.

That's:
$212/day for Hoosiers
$65/day for RA-1s

If I were to go to the track 24 days per year (12 events), although obviously I go much more than this, that's 212-65=$147/day x 24 = $3528 more per year on Hoosiers. That's more than my coilovers right there. And I can use the coilovers year after year.
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STRIKE: if the novice class is going to have cumulative points award for the year, once someone signs up for novice it would only seem fair that they get to run the whole year. If they end up kicking total ass, well that's just the way it is. Someone has to win. The following year, if they're too fast we force them into the "COMPETITION" (or "COMP") series (is that less pretentious than PRO rylan?). We wouldnt' ever downgrade someone to novice unless they chose to do so - I know this is a particular fear of yours.... but don't worry .
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CTHREE: cthree is arguing the same point made earlier to go to a spec series with SCCA-type rules. I agree completely and would like to do that. Here's the problem:
Many of us don't want to be limited to a street setup on the track. I, for one, really really really want to run coilovers. That already bumps the whole shibang out of the SCCA rulebook. If that means I have to run unlimited, then I need a supercharger and I don't want one of those. So, if I were going to have a spec series here's what I would like to see it look like for the COMPETITION classes:

MODIFIED:
--- all the "stock" type mods we have listed already are allowed (exhaust, x-brace, brake lines, etc. etc.)
--- STOCK WHEELS only (everyone's got them and they're cheap to get extra sets)
--- Kumho/RA-1/AO32r tires only
--- stock brakes only (they work fine even though they're not perfect)
--- cold air intake allowed (cheap and FUN!!)
--- coilovers (makes the car a real race car rather than a bouncy street car)
--- front swaybar
--- rear wing (not active)
--- no other aerodynamic additions other than rear wing
--- some form of passenger seat must be in place (stock or race)
--- no weight reductions other than spare tire, jack, etc.
--- flywheel/clutch allowed (cheap once you have to do your clutch anyway).

This "Spec" series would allow for all the basic stuff to have a great track car that's still driveable on the street. No windows ripped out or inside of car torn to shreds. AC still in, etc. I'd rather not hvae the hard top in there, but a lot of people have them already and they probably don't want to re-install the soft top. I like the idea of keeping some form of passenger seat in since part of our events is giving rides, instructing, etc.

The problem is that to run in this spec series and build THE MOST COMPETITIVE CAR (which you don't have to do if you're a kickass driver), it would cost:

CAI : $300
Coilovers: $3000 (Mugen)
swaybar ($300) not necessary really with coilovers anyway.
rear wing ($500)
flywheel ($300)

To the total of mods, excluding those that aren't really necessary, would be:
CAI, coilovers, wing, flywheel = $4100

Let me ramble for a second more.....

Now the above "spec" series would be great but it doesn't make room for the scca autocrossers. That's why we have the point system to begin with: to allow for a number of combinations to suit the wide variety of mods, cars, and people out there. That's the problem with a spec series like cthree is proposing. Unless, of course, we have two spec series. Then we would have a less modified version that cthree proposed that would be optimized for the autocrossers, and then the higher series that might look like the one I outlined above. Then of course we still need to have the UNLIMMITED. That would give us 3 Competition classes. I'd rather have 2 myself just to create competition and larger fields.

The NOVICE should mimic the COMP classes I think.

After all this analysis, I still think the cold hard fact is that somone will show up at an SV event with some weird-ass thing on his car that doesn't fit into the spec series(') and then we have to say, "sorry charlie, since you have a carbon fiber hood you need to run unlimited even though you don't even have coilovers." That just doesn't seem to work. Once we have a monstrous following we can tell people what to do. At this point in time we're more at the mercy of all the various drivers that show up.

CTHREE: your idea that we "use a well defined and fully sanctioned classification system then you can compete within class at other events outside of SV" is exactly what we've created with the original classification system. Autocrossers were kept in mind the entire time. That's why Rhoads has been able to show up and kick ass.

In conclusion, I just want to say that I far far prefer a spec type deal. I'm just scared about alienating people with funky-ass mods that would, in practice, place them outside of any class. I think the goal is to create a classing that includes SCCA drivers and includes the large number of mod-crazy people.

 

Another possibility: we have a SPEC class like the one I've mentioned above. However, drivers could choose between two different setups. For example

MOD-COMP (configuration #1)
--- all existing STOCK modifications
--- STOCK WHEELS
--- Kumho/RA-1/AO32r tires
--- stock brakes
--- cold air intake
--- coilovers
--- front swaybar
--- rear wing
--- flywheel/clutch

MOD-COMP (configuration #2)
--- all existing STOCK modifications
--- stock wheels
--- Hoosiers
--- stock brakes
--- shocks only
--- front swaybar
--- rear wing

This would mean there were two possible setups, one for autocrossers and cthree, and one for the rest of us. The hoosiers would offset the lack of CAI, coilovers, and flywheel.

Obviously we would have to end up tweaking this a little to make it fair once we find out which of the two possible configurations would be dominant. For instance if config. #2 wasn't competitive we could allow any wheels. Or if config. #1 wasn't competitive we could allow VAFC or some other power adders or something that weren't too expensive.

But, I kind of like this and think it might work. It allows the autocrossers to swap trunk lids to get the wing on and off, which is the only thing they're not allowed to use at SCCA events. Obviously some of us running config. #1 would have to remove some stuff (like VAFC, header, CF hood, put the catalytic converter back in, remove hard top when coming to track events, and other stuff). So that would be the down-side.

And of course we'd still have the UNLIMITED class. Those who didn't want to remove a few things to run in MOD would have to just get their asses kicked by the UL guys, or spend more money.

This would give us:

MOD-COMP (2 possible setups)
UNLIMITED-COMP

STOCK-NOVICE
MOD-NOVICE
UNLIMITED-NOVICE

dt

 

I object to all this "front swaybar" only nonsense, since I just got done installing front *and* rear swaybars. (No, I'm not making this up just to be difficult!)

Where's the love for those of us who want a tail-happy car?

[Edit: P.S. Comptech F&R swaybar set is $400, the same price as a Mugen front bar alone.]

 

Seriously, how many "serious" auto-xers actually show up at the events in s2ks? Rhoads and Keeney (sometimes).

Seems you have too much focus on them and not on the actual regulars that are competing in the series.

No gutted interiors etc I understand, but saying no weight saving mods is unreal.

Ghetto exhaust saves 30-40lbs.
Light Battery saves 15lbs
2 race seats save atleast 50lbs
etc.

 

Not allowing removal of passenger seat might be tough for some who need to do this to transport wheels to the track (even autocrossers). Lack of a passenger seat wouldn't be an advantage if you could add an equivalent weight ballast safely (i.e. bolted into the same holes; and supplied at the track by SV ). I agree though that stripping the interior shouldn't be allowed.

Back to the big picture, I think that for this year, since we are already 6 track days into it, we simply stay with the points system we have but tweak the assigned points minimally and/or ban certain combinations (as has been discussed at length earlier) to prevent potential dreaded combinations that no one yet has. Next year we can make major overhauls when we will have more experience/data on which to base them.

 

Clarification:

Street Prepared class IS NOT Stock class. Seriously, click that link I posted. Coilovers are 100% allowed in SP class so are any wheels of any size and offset. You can widen the fenders to accomdate any tire wheel combo.

Please click that link and have a quick read, it's not that long. You'll see that everything that everyone wants to do is allowed with the exception of major engine mods, forced induction and wings. I know the S2000 AutoX peeps are always talking about autox class but they are not talking about the same class as I am.

Allowed:

coilovers of any type
any wheels
any brakes
any intake
any exhaust street legal or not as long as it exits behind the driver
any ECU, injectors, fuel rail or pump, ignition timing

Not Allowed:

wings front or rear
hoods or hood scoops
forced induction

Richard:

What I'm talking about is start with a very well known config and then add a few changes. Amend the spec and say the the seat doesn't need to be installed just that it could be installed. Then people who take out the passenger seat to transport are cool as long as they don't change the car such that an approved seat couldn't be installed without changing the car. Make sense?

What I propose is SCCA Street Prepared with three ammendments:

1. DOT steel belted radial tires only (slicks are out, hoosiers are out)
2. Passenger seat doesn't need to be installed, only that it could be without modification.
3. Any hood

 

While I agree with your concept, C3... Street Prepared cars are really highly prepared cars. You can port the head as long as it's within 1" of the manifold mating surfaces. You can run one-off custom built dyno tuned fuel injection. Luckily, cams aren't allowed so that can help keep the power down. But a fully 'built' street prepared car with no cat (legal in SP) would pobably make some serious power.

I think that the current points setup and the banning of the Hoosiers accomplishes most of the goal. In the end, only one setup will be the fastest, so there really is only one rule set if you want to compete. I think I've figured out what that setup is (no I ain't telling) but with a little more time it will be clear. The points system accomplished the goal of allowing various mods without letting someone get out of control.

Believe me, I'm with you 100% on having a hard-and-fast spec to run with... and I think Aaron is too. But they've got a point about participation. I think for now the points system works as good as it can if the changes that DT posted up for voting earlier are all addressed.

 

aaron, if you need a ballast that would take place of the passenger seat, I can offer the seat rail/assembly I fab'd for a base of whatever weight you want to bolt to it as a substitute for the passenger seat. I'm expecting my adjustable seat rails very soon.