I got a email back asking to clarify exactly what I'm asking for. I requested dropping the need to keep the oem ecus and allow full standalones as long as they plug right into the oem wiring. This would allow cars in ST equal ability across the board. Restrictions on how I plug in the unit is pointless.

Who cares if I use a fullstand alone unit that's piggybacked into the stock unit or a full standalone thats plugs into the oem wiring and removes the oem ecu. Once piggybacked in the oem unit is basicly pointless and not really being used. So why require that I keep it. Plus not every car is going to have a piggyback harnesss for the standalones. Which is why I have a issue with the current rules.

 

Yours is a great example of why wording is important, and probably why they asked for clarification. Not every car is going to have a plug-in capable standalone. By your wording above, anything that needs a patch harness to adapt the ECU to the factory wiring could be argued to be illegal.

 

So, it should be possible to run a standalone as a piggyback, and use a stock ECU to provide OBD2 functionality (the only thing that the standalones I'm aware of don't provide that is required by the rule). The standalone would control timing, fuel, vtec, etc directly. As I understand it, this would be legal under the new 2012 ECU allowance.

I have heard of it being done on other cars, has anyone made any progress to that effect with cable-throttle S2000's? What technical challenges would need to be solved to do this? The obvious one is how to feed the stock ECU correct sensor data to keep the OBD system working?

 

An patch harness plugs into the factory connectors and has its own spiced wires to make up the patch harness. Therefore remaining legal


matt p-

You are correct, the way they are proposing the rules right now is they are going to allow full standalones to be used in ST but they are saying we must keep the OEM ecu in the mix also. As in piggybacking the ecu into the mix. The end product of this would keep the OBD2 port working although the standalone unit would be controling everything. My issue with this is not every car in ST is going to have a patch (piggyback) harness availble on the market to allow for a standalone to be used.

Another issue which I think is the issue evans is having is with the stock ECU in the mix it's going to want to relearn it's self and untune the inputs sent to it from the standalone unit.

My proposal is to ditch this stupid requirement of having to keep the oem ecu in the mix and just allow everyone to plug in any ecu they wish as long as they don't cut up the factory harness and connectors. This would allow normal Plug and Play units (such as the new haltech unit Evans has been promoting), full standalones can be piggybacked into the stock ecu (example- emanagement on a s2k), and you can modify the oem ecu how ever you want (ectune, megasquirts, ect), and any other tuner as long as your not cutting off the factory connectors. Having plugs pluged into them and then spicing the shit out of a bunch of wires would be completely legal. Just can't cut off the connectors.

Thats the only option to have equal tuning ability when compared to the tuning ability of drive by wire cars that can use units such as flashpro.


If they can't be fair and do that then take all tuning away from everyone in ST. I don't understand how anyone would disagree with what I'm saying. You either allow everyone to tune on a equal level or allow no one. I don't give a shit either way. Just make it fair across the board. Any restrictions they make besides the one I listed could posibly limit some car in ST the ability to tune on a equal level.

 

quoting this: "My issue with this is not every car in _____ is going to have a ___________ availble on the market to allow for ___________."


Fill the blank. Welcome to racing. Build your own.

 

I believe the intent of requiring the original ECU is to maintain emission compliance; or at least be able to pass compliance checks. This is to provide parity between competitors regardless of local emission compliance testing requirements.

The OE ECU does not 'learn' during open loop operation. No feedback is used, and therefore no corrections are applied.

The new allowances which allows piggybacks with direct manipulation of ECU outputs will bring near parity to flashable and non-flashable vehicles. At least as long and you have/can make plug-n-play harness.

The current rules try to keep the ST category street legal to ensure parity between emission compliance areas. Although I certianly understand the desire to allow everyone to tune equally. I think I wrote a letter to the SCCA many years ago regarding competitive disadvantage of many OBD2 vehicles where one could only tune fueling and VTEC/whatever engagement compared to pre-OBD and OBD1 vehicles; holy run-on sentence.

 

Beat me to it. It doesn't matter if something is available commercially, it just matters that it can be made.

Fabricated quite a few things for autocross and track cars, just not that knowledgeable on the ECU front.

 

If people need to stay emission friendly in thier current state then thats on them and they can choice another form of tuning. Such as a piggy-backed unit.

I don't know about you bud but I want part throttle gains if I can get them. O wait did you just list a very possible disadvantage of not allowing to remove the oem ecu? So you agree thier might be still a advantage of the flash units over piggybacked ones. Arn't we trying to allow equal tuning across all cars in ST? Why should flash based tuned cars get part throttle gains and obd2 cable throttle cars not? How is that fair?

Ding, Ding, Ding... not every car on the market will have a harness available. And as you are seeing with the S2000 and many other cars you can't make a workable harness for them. Evans has been working for months on his and it still doesn't work right. What makes you guys think you can make one in your garage at home when people like Jeff Evans can't even make one that works? This isn't F1 racing it's autocross, we race in parking lots and then drive home scaring old ladys with our loud cars as we drive by thier homes. Not every car currently has or will ever have a harness that will allow a equal tuner to be used.

If emissions are a concern then pick a tuning device that allows you to keep your emission requirements. Don't punish the rest of us because your state sucks. Maybe they can use this nifty piggyback they are proposing that half of the car won't even be able to use. In all honestly if you take a fully prepped str car to a emissions test I don't see it passing even if the obd2 port worked. If for some reason they can pass the test and only need to have the obd2 port working then unplug your plug and play unit and plug in a factory ecu. Vala! a car with a working obd2 port!

I can do this all day. Thier isn't one legit agrument about what I'm saying besides dive by wire guys crying because they don't want obd2 throttle cable guys having the same tuning abilitys as them.

Come at me bro.

 

Jeff Evans is having issues doing it, do you really think some no name in his garage would be able to come up with a harness that works? Thats not even logical.

 

You seem to have a small view of the big picture. The SCCA is a national organization, where discriminating against customers based upon location (we are customers after all) is very poor business. This is amplified by the fact that the majority of potential customers live in high population density areas, which have a greater likelyhood of ozone/whatever non-compliance and mandatory vehicle testing.

If you want more power at part throttle, how about you give the car a little more throttle? The engine doesn't miraculously produce huge power increases from 100% TPS to 95% TPS.

Ahhh... the harness is the easy part, its getting the controllers to play nice that's difficult. Plus, the entire future of AP1 piggybacks doesn't rely upon the Haltech, see the Emanage Ultimate.

It's called parity, you seem to only want it when it solely benefits you (that's not parity), not the entire customer base. Small view, big picture.

Ohh, and a fully preppared ST* car will pass an OBD2 emission compliance check/test. How do you think non-STR, bolt-on people survive in a world of emission compliance checks? They certainly don't strip every aftermarket part off the car every 2-4 years for a 10 minute test.

I'm glad you can be continuously immature, hence my change in tone.