I agree with this completely. I work for a company that does basically what he does - low volume system integration engineering (i.e. taking mostly off the shelf parts along with a few custom ones and turning them into a system), of course we're in a totally different market. We mark things up more than Bill Gendron does. There are a lot more costs than just the initial cost of the individual parts. And anyway, the bars are very popular - if that isn't enough evidence that his pricing is fine then I don't know what is. He has no duty to sell things at cost for the good of autocrossers. If anything since we're such a small market he should mark them up significantly to pay for his time. I think his current pricing strikes a good balance.

It is worth noting that his bars are not perfect by any means, and you can make a better one for cheaper (not including time) if you know what you're doing, but they still are a good product at a fair price.

 

Very well said!

I've taken the majority of my conversations with Josh OFFLINE when there needed to be some "curbing of enthusiasm" or a little coaching. IMO, some public rants are just as destructive as mislabeling of factual vs. opinionated posts as it might prevent some from trying to collaborate with us. I'm just too stupid to care, so I contribute when/where I can. However.... I do try to be quick to point out that I'm not an engineer (etc.) or even not that great of a driver. I just bring some civility and a lot of history with this section of S2KI.

My suggestion would be to correct misinformation with a factual one and without the emotion. This is important to minimize wasting time, money, and/or effort and get things back in line. And, when it is time to set someone straight or have a bone to pick with someone, try to go with private messages. This helps the individual that needs the coaching, plus it does not scare off a potential noob that could be a great future contributor. Hopefully with that conversation, they will learn from it and even retract/edit/clarify the misinformation.

-Dave

 

PedalFaster has a very good point. People are still lining up for the Gendron bar because it's proven. Proven support, proven to get results more importantly proven to be durable. While other companies have gone by the wayside, Bill is still supporting the cause so it's hard to fault him. I've gone back and forth on the "way overpriced" thing. Yes, his sway bar with all the options is costly. But it's also not really a wear item. So it will last as long as you want to use it, and still be passed onto someone else when you're done. How much do we spend on tires? EVERY YEAR.

As someone who was able to duplicate the design, trust me, there is a crapload of work involved. The arms start out as a 30 degree 1-1/4" 48 spline steel arm from Speedway. To clear the steering rack boots you have to machine them down to the final size. Then you have to bend them to line up with the control arms. But yet still clear the shocks. I was able to accomplish this with a plasma torch mounted to a CNC router. I made 4 arms so the CNC was the easiest way to duplicate the cuts. The plasma cut through the thick steel without creating a huge heat affected zone, and it was fast. Then I used a pretty large hydrualic break to get the bend. I'm not sure how Bill accomplishes all this. I'm sure he has even more fancy machinery than I had at the time.

What I'm getting at is that by the time you go to someone with all the pieces and have them fabricate the swaybar, you'll spend the same amount of money at SFR. For a one-stop, bolt-in solution it's hard to beat. If you work somewhere with all the equipment then it starts to be worth the effort to make it yourself.

A really cool design solution I saw a while ago was built by a guy called SERNick. I'm not sure if he's on this forum as I saw it on another forum. His design placed the bar closer to the chassis which allowed the arms to go above the rack, then a long endlink dropped down to the control arm. I was really impressed by that design. I'm also impressed by Ankeny's. But I don't like the fact the center isn't interchangable. Maybe it doesn't need it but why not have the option?

I was toying with the idea of combining the two. A high mounted interchangable center section with blade arms. But I have a computer job now and not the manufacturing job I had 10 years ago so it's easier for me to just buy a readily available option.

 

nice post!! I really value input like this. First hand experience FTW. As a Manufacturing Engineer by career, I understand manufacturing and do know the actual value of most things. I cringe a bit when I hear people complaining about certain things and or how they'd do it better.. . I got under the car and drew out how I'd do the rear bar. I had to stop and smell the roses when my design for the bar mounts was inferior to Bill's and I was going to spend too much time on it. The value of off-the-shelf versus my time just became nill (In real life I make ~30$/hr) after I spent probably about 8 hours of research and thinking, drawing, quoting material from speedway and then 3 hours or so of setup of parts including going to buy some steel, cutting and drilling and painting stuff.. . Shesh, a lot of work for maybe $200 of raw material savings minus the FANCY bearing mounts and using some cheesy universal Prothane mounts with spacers under them.

 

Do you have or know where any images of this FSB arrangement reside? I vaguely remember Nick posting something about it a couple of years ago.

I recently purchased the parts to build my own Speedway Engineering bar. After sitting in the front wheel well with one of the bar ends in my hand, the upside down approach seemed like it could work. The bar mounting would also be simplified and could be made to be very stiff. A slight downside is the elevated CG of the FSB assembly, but I think the benefits would easily outweigh this disadvantage. When I finally get around to building the FSB, I'll post my findings and images of the design.

 

Shoot, I just wish I could figure out what hole to use!

-Please, no "that's what she said" jokes.

 

I seem to recall that it was nick that had done this as well. From what I remember the arms were mounted in a more vertical fashion with some huge end links. I think pics might be buried in the mega STR thread, but please don't waste all day looking for them based on my memory.

 

Yes the arms went above the tie rods on Nick's car and the sway bar brackets were very solid. I should've taken pictures when we were working on it now that I have my own S2K. IIRC a lot of the parts were from Speedway though I think he had a local place water jet the arms for him.

 

I agree with this completely. I work for a company that does basically what he does - low volume system integration engineering (i.e. taking mostly off the shelf parts along with a few custom ones and turning them into a system), of course we're in a totally different market. We mark things up more than Bill Gendron does. There are a lot more costs than just the initial cost of the individual parts. And anyway, the bars are very popular - if that isn't enough evidence that his pricing is fine then I don't know what is. He has no duty to sell things at cost for the good of autocrossers. If anything since we're such a small market he should mark them up significantly to pay for his time. I think his current pricing strikes a good balance.

It is worth noting that his bars are not perfect by any means, and you can make a better one for cheaper (not including time) if you know what you're doing, but they still are a good product at a fair price.
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All good arguments, and i appreciate the other side. In this case you all are probably right. The main point (which i strayed from) that i was trying to make, was that for the premium price, i just would have expected some high quality hardware that was up to the standards of the arms and center section.

Also, i will stand up for Josh in some regards, he is a nice guy and does mean well. He just is almost as bad as i am with self moderation and putting thoughts to paper

 

That would be the primary reason I built my own. I figured if I were going to use different endlinks, brackets and locating collars I might as well see if I can make the arms.


Luckily I'm anal retentive about keeping (and organizing) photos of stuff that inspires me. Hopefully Nick won't mind me posting these here.