AEM EMS is not much more than flash pro. I bought my Series 2 brand new for a hair over $1,200. Best investment I've made to date. Also, AEM EMS is way cheaper than a K-Pro.

 

Seems like these threads are always popping up from time to time. To address the last reply.. AEM EMS != flashpro, at least from a stock like feel and daily driveability standpoint. I haven't looked into EMS's in some time, but hondata's had great driveability/cold starting/etc. since they first came out 10+ years ago with the eeproms you had to flash.

Anyway, AP1 vs. AP2 simply comes down to personal preference guys, it's as simple as that. I daily drive my car, so some extra creature comforts and a bit more comfy ride/flatter torque curve are very much welcome. For those who regularly track the car and are hardcore enthusiasts, I completely understand preferring the AP1 over the AP2. I at first hated (and still don't really care for) the feathery light gas pedal (it needs a heavier spring) and clutch pedal, but I've adjusted over time, and it's fine now. I've driven some AP1's, and the lighter flywheel is very much noticeable, but hardly a dealbreaker. I used to be all into imports and looking back used to daily drive a car that I would think is nuts today (rock hard suspension, removed the a/c, very loud, very heavy clutch, etc), and I guess everyone's perspective changes as they get older. I guess I'm turning into a bit of a pu$$y as I get older.. it is what it is..

 

I bought a 2001 Spa Yellow and liked it so much that I bought a 2007 Rio Yellow.

My daughter now has the 2001.

After a few years, I'll probably be in the market for another AP2 (additional, not replacement). I just need to make more garage space.

 

OK, let me further explain then.

I have an 02', bone stock other than a custom intake and exhaust setup and a set of ASA 17x8's with factory spec tires. The AP2 was bone stock as well, no intake or exhaust (like that would be a noticeable diff.).
Anyway, I drive the AP1 at it's limit quite often, and I know how to control it. After driving my 340whp Mazdaspeed Miata daily, the S is EASY. Yes, I said it. I live on a mountain road that leads to six houses, mine being the first. From the main highway to my house is about 7 miles of serpentine bliss, no other houses or people to endanger (had to get that out before someone "flames" me for driving recklessly on public roads, lmao). I test drove the AP2 on this road also, so there is equality here, no different setting/different scenario b.s. Let me make this simple, I don't feel like typing all day:

1. The AP2 has slow steering, compared to either my S or MSM. Not cool, I have an H3 for that.
2. The car is noticeably heavier than the AP1, at least to someone who uses chassis feedback on the regular.
3. 8K isn't 9K, obviously. Flashpro'ing your F22 to 8,500 WILL shorten the life of the internals, as Honda didn't design it to rev past 8 (note piston speed)
4. I had VSA turned OFF, and the car still isn't as visceral as the AP1, still too slow in its responses, to "floppy". Yay that they made it "safer" for inexperienced drivers (sigh).

So, from my short analysis, IMO, the AP1 wins. That is MY opinion, and I'm not defending the AP1 because I own one, just because, to a purist, it drives better. STOCK for STOCK, of course. Otherwise, I would have probably bought the AP2 for a backup (you know, in case of that "freak accident" that may occur driving the AP1 at it's limit so often ). Instead, I'm searching for a low mileage 02-03' AP1...

 

Starting off, getting rid of the exhaust IS a noticeable difference in weight and the ol' "seat of the pants". the noise coming from the car can accent the driving experience. Imagine driving a muffled Ferrari 430 then driving an unmuffled Ferrari 430. It'll change the "feel" of the car, cause of the audible difference.
You are also running wider/taller wheels, which plays a role in how the car feels too. Not sure if you're running the factory widths for the AP1...

Driving "at it's limit" doesn't mean you know how to drive the car. People drive at the limit all the time, doesn't mean they know what they are doing. Don't get the two mixed up.

Slower, yes. Slow, no. It is slower, but, having driven a Scuderia, 458, a Lotus Exige, and other cars which are absolute perfection to drive, the AP2's steering is spot on with these cars.

When you have a stock lighter car (roughly 30lbs between ap1 and ap2), then make it even lighter by tossing in an aftermarket intake and exhaust...which could drop as much as 60lbs if you have a super light exhaust and intake. Combined, that's nearly 100lbs.


except, you didn't compare a stock car vs a stock car... 17x8s, aftermarket intake and exhaust... is NOT a stock car. Even by SCCA Solo2 standards (which has a weird vision of "stock"). I do agree that the AP1 has quicker steering (cause it does), a more "nimble" feel (cause it does), and a higher rev limiter (again, cause it does).

 

If you look it up the AP2 piston travel speed at 8500 is the same as the AP1 at 9000. I know I won't lose any sleep and I doubt the hundreds of other reflashed AP2s will either

Now the people who reflash their AP2s to 9000 are a different story.

 

I've driven quite a few tight-knit sports cars myself, as I've owned a 997 Porsche, a Boxster S, and a C6 Z06 (the Vette doesn't count- it's numb as can be). I've also raced TT and shifter carts my whole life, so vehicle control and the aspects related to it are something I could discuss all night. I've driven all of my cars "to their limit", some beyond. I will admit that I have ventured off the beaten path a few times, but have always recovered fully without any doubts, so HOW to drive is something I know and know WELL. Yeah, the seat of the pants feeling is increased by a louder exhaust note, but feeling two missing mufflers that total about 38 lbs. isn't happening unless you actually "think" about them being gone and pay all of your attention to the rear of the car. Since most of the mass is centralized in this car, it's not that noticeable. I seriously doubt that if GM would have used steel panels instead of lightweight wood panels in the floorboards of my Z06 that I would have noticed, just for reference. The wheels: Irrelevant. A stock AP2 has the advantage here, and I felt no advantage when driving it. I'm running AP2 factory-spec tires on wheels that weigh MORE than my stock AP1's. This means taller ratios (which decreases acceleration performance) and more unsprung weight (which negatively affects handling, albeit slightly in this case). The intake saved NO weight, as I'm still using the lower half of the stock box with a fabricated heat shield at the top with no lid. The exhaust did save weight (read above), as I'm running no mufflers at all, just straight pipes with resonated tips. Not trying to start an argument here, all I'm saying is that I find the AP1 superior to the AP2 in every way except a few interior and exterior updates that the AP2 has.

 

Sidenote, AP1Driver, did you swap that AP2 transmission into your AP1? I saw a thread about that in your history.

As soon as you swap suspension you've negated most of the differences. If you're worried about the 30 lb difference between AP1/AP2, then pull out your spare tire and stop eating those Twinkies.

Remove the CDV (pretty easy) and an AP1 flywheel, then you've narrowed the differences even more.

 

cool. But, again... "driving the limit" doesn't equate to "knowing how to drive". And you posting up a credentials doesn't really show you know how to drive, just that you've driven things. Experience doesn't equate to ability either. There are guys who have 60 years of seat time, but turn the slowest lap times. They can talk you to the line, but doing it themselves is a different ball game.

I can tell you how to shoot a target with a gun, doesn't mean I can shoot one accurately.


Again, you're opinion is based on a modified car vs. a stock one. I don't suspect your biased opinion to change with a comparison of stock ap1 vs stock ap2...
Of course, the best car to have is a CR if you're talking performance, since the Solo2 results show the top placing S2000 in BS and STR is a CR...

Best thing going for the AP1s right now, cost. They are much cheaper than AP2s...

 

I agree with most of your points except for these ones.
The AP2 DOES NOT have steering even close to a scuderia, it is closer to the Lotus but still falls short. Even the AP1's steering rack isn't even close to the Ferrari's. The Ferrari has a variable steering rack system. If you thought they were the same, there can only be two reasons : you are not experienced enough to feel it, or you weren't going fast enough to trigger it. But i suppose that's what money buys you

The weight difference between an AP2 and AP1 is closer to 50lbs stock for stock. And unless he went from the stock exhaust to a single titanium, he's not shaving 60lbs. Stock intake weighs like nothing. So i would probably say 30-40 lbs in savings there.

Now my take on the situation is: If i was to just use the car as a DD and have fun with it, i'd probably buy an AP2, just cause its more comfy and has a nicer interior. ( though AP1 owners need not worry! upgrade XD!!!)

If i was to track the car, it'd definitely be an AP1. Lighter weight to begin with, cheaper car, more raw feeling.