Are the prices for S2000s out of control?
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 43
Likes: 0
From: Portland OR
IMHO, prices for particular cars get 'out of control' when the financial speculators move in and create a bubble in valuations. This has happened, repeatedly, over the years as 'investing' has become more like gambling. There have been several well-known bubbles in the past couple of decades, with Ferraris, muscle cars, and right now, with air cooled Porsche 911's, in each case with actual sales prices doubling, tripling, or more in just a year or two.
Ironically, this seems to happen when the stock market has had a long upward run, like it has for the past few years. Investors start getting nervous that the market is 'topping out' and is 'due for a correction'. So, they start looking for 'commodities' to invest in that they think will hold their value when the artificial price of 'paper' declines. These speculators are not usually car enthusiasts or even buy the cars to drive, but purely as speculative 'investments'. They also rationalize that they can drive a car occasionally, and you can't do that with an electronic receipt for an investment in a financial instrument.
I think this is what has been happening with air-cooled 911 Porsches over the past year or two. If you really want to see an example of 'out of control' prices, take a look at what's happened to air-cooled Porsches, especially the older (1960's-1970's) ones. Prices have gone up 3-5x over the past couple of years. Rusty heaps that are barely worthwhile restoring are selling for tens of thousands of dollars. Prime early 911's are going for six figures. IMHO, this is truly insanity.
The thing about bubbles is, they eventually pop. There usually comes a point where investors run out of the ability to sell cars back and forth to each other for progressively higher prices, and they realize things have gotten out of hand - and then prices plummet. Like what happened with Ferraris and muscle cars, and, I suspect, might happen with Porsche 911's.
I've had the misfortune to have to work with a lot of these kinds of 'investors' in my career. I think they are absolutely despicable excuses for people. They call it 'surf investing': catch the wave early, and get off the wave early - before it crashes on the shore and takes the suckers with it. I knew one guy who bragged about all the millions he made betting on oil increasing from $100/barrel to $140 several years ago. He then borrowed a ton of money and leveraged himself to the teeth betting that it would go to $250 - and then it crashed to $70 and wiped him out. It couldn't have happened to a more deserving guy.
I don't think this is what's happening with S2000's. It just doesn't seem like the kind of "status" car that attracts the speculators. S2000's also have not experienced the kind of rapid and steep price jumps that characterize bubbles. I think what we're seeing is what several people here have described - there really are no cars comparable to the S2000 on the market or coming in the future, and enthusiasts who appreciate, and drive, them are trying to get a good one before they're gone.
The S2000 is at an interesting phase right now. The newest ones are getting old enough that they're no longer 'almost new' or even maybe not 'late model'. The newest ones are now 6 years old. The supply of pristine, low mileage original cars is dwindling, as more and more of them are racking up the miles, getting modified to death, get beaten to death, or just plain wear out. From people I've talked to who are looking for a S2000, if you want a perfect, low mileage example, it might be 'last call' to find one.
In 10 years, whatever pristine low mileage originals might be left will certainly be far and few between, and those will likely cost a lot more than they do today.
Ironically, this seems to happen when the stock market has had a long upward run, like it has for the past few years. Investors start getting nervous that the market is 'topping out' and is 'due for a correction'. So, they start looking for 'commodities' to invest in that they think will hold their value when the artificial price of 'paper' declines. These speculators are not usually car enthusiasts or even buy the cars to drive, but purely as speculative 'investments'. They also rationalize that they can drive a car occasionally, and you can't do that with an electronic receipt for an investment in a financial instrument.
I think this is what has been happening with air-cooled 911 Porsches over the past year or two. If you really want to see an example of 'out of control' prices, take a look at what's happened to air-cooled Porsches, especially the older (1960's-1970's) ones. Prices have gone up 3-5x over the past couple of years. Rusty heaps that are barely worthwhile restoring are selling for tens of thousands of dollars. Prime early 911's are going for six figures. IMHO, this is truly insanity.
The thing about bubbles is, they eventually pop. There usually comes a point where investors run out of the ability to sell cars back and forth to each other for progressively higher prices, and they realize things have gotten out of hand - and then prices plummet. Like what happened with Ferraris and muscle cars, and, I suspect, might happen with Porsche 911's.
I've had the misfortune to have to work with a lot of these kinds of 'investors' in my career. I think they are absolutely despicable excuses for people. They call it 'surf investing': catch the wave early, and get off the wave early - before it crashes on the shore and takes the suckers with it. I knew one guy who bragged about all the millions he made betting on oil increasing from $100/barrel to $140 several years ago. He then borrowed a ton of money and leveraged himself to the teeth betting that it would go to $250 - and then it crashed to $70 and wiped him out. It couldn't have happened to a more deserving guy.
I don't think this is what's happening with S2000's. It just doesn't seem like the kind of "status" car that attracts the speculators. S2000's also have not experienced the kind of rapid and steep price jumps that characterize bubbles. I think what we're seeing is what several people here have described - there really are no cars comparable to the S2000 on the market or coming in the future, and enthusiasts who appreciate, and drive, them are trying to get a good one before they're gone.
The S2000 is at an interesting phase right now. The newest ones are getting old enough that they're no longer 'almost new' or even maybe not 'late model'. The newest ones are now 6 years old. The supply of pristine, low mileage original cars is dwindling, as more and more of them are racking up the miles, getting modified to death, get beaten to death, or just plain wear out. From people I've talked to who are looking for a S2000, if you want a perfect, low mileage example, it might be 'last call' to find one.
In 10 years, whatever pristine low mileage originals might be left will certainly be far and few between, and those will likely cost a lot more than they do today.
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,137
Likes: 100
I think people saying there are no comparables in the price range are spot-on. The closest I found are the Z3/Z4 M (really like them actually) and Boxster S. I would say that, frankly overall, those are slightly superior cars in the sense that they perform a bit better, have a bit nicer interiors (well, not the 986 Boxster!), look good, etc. HOWEVER, the purchase price is roughly DOUBLE what a clean S2k is, and you do not get the bombproof reliability and low running costs.
Everything else in the price range offers inferior performance (Miata, FR-S/BRZ), inferior handling (Mustang, others), or are unnecessarily heavy and relatively complicated (350/370Z, Z3/Z4, Boxster, etc). If my S got stolen or totaled (heaven forbid), I'd think "cool, I get a check for probably more than I paid"... only to then turn around and buy another S, because there's simply nothing that can offer a similar driving experience and low-maintenance/running costs as the S2000 for even close to the price.
Other things S2000s have going for it value-wise:
-People modding/abusing them
-An abundance of exterior/interior combos, AP1 vs. AP2, glass vs. plastic rear window, cable throttle vs. Hondata and stability control, etc. A case can be made for any variant being someone's favorite... some are worth more than others but none is the redheaded stepchild that's clearly the least desirable
-The fact that cars this simple, light, N/A and manual may not even be made ever again at an affordable price
Everything else in the price range offers inferior performance (Miata, FR-S/BRZ), inferior handling (Mustang, others), or are unnecessarily heavy and relatively complicated (350/370Z, Z3/Z4, Boxster, etc). If my S got stolen or totaled (heaven forbid), I'd think "cool, I get a check for probably more than I paid"... only to then turn around and buy another S, because there's simply nothing that can offer a similar driving experience and low-maintenance/running costs as the S2000 for even close to the price.
Other things S2000s have going for it value-wise:
-People modding/abusing them
-An abundance of exterior/interior combos, AP1 vs. AP2, glass vs. plastic rear window, cable throttle vs. Hondata and stability control, etc. A case can be made for any variant being someone's favorite... some are worth more than others but none is the redheaded stepchild that's clearly the least desirable
-The fact that cars this simple, light, N/A and manual may not even be made ever again at an affordable price
Registered User
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 390
Likes: 1
From: TH
I think the S2000 will follow a pricing curve similar to 240Z, 280Z, or maybe an old MG or Austin-Healey. All of those cars bottomed out at some level that had value even as a completely used up used car. Intact or restored cars today are fetching good prices, but not stratospheric or bubble pricing like air-cooled 911s or Italian exotics. That won't happen with S2000s as there were just too many made.
Registered User
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Imo the cars are/becoming 15+ year old cars and (as per what I've seen on car talk,jalopnik,etc.) this spring will have many s2000s for sals. Let me expand...996 911s,e46 and e92 m3s, and c6 corvettes have become great deals, depreciation has hit the toyburo frs/brz cars....
There are many reasons for owners to leave their cars(if they have some extra cash).
There are many reasons for owners to leave their cars(if they have some extra cash).
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 196
Likes: 2
Another annoying aspect of S2k sales is that everyone and their mom thinks they can recoup the cost of mods on the sale of their car.
Take the Turbo s2k in IL fs on here right now. He wants 22.5k for a 2000 S2k, turbo'd, rebuilt ish on it, 126k miles... That car is literally worth ~10k. I wrote to him asking if he was negotiable and he wouldn't go down more than a few thousand. That car will never, ever, in 500 years sell for 18k unless a total schmuck wants it. He even thought it was worth upwards of 14k stock. For a 2000 S2k. With 126k miles.
This is the typical S2k owner, in my experience. Not trying to bash on him, but people have very delusional ideas of what their car is worth. Yeah, it's a nice looking car, but at its core it's a 2000 S2k with 126k miles on it.
Take the Turbo s2k in IL fs on here right now. He wants 22.5k for a 2000 S2k, turbo'd, rebuilt ish on it, 126k miles... That car is literally worth ~10k. I wrote to him asking if he was negotiable and he wouldn't go down more than a few thousand. That car will never, ever, in 500 years sell for 18k unless a total schmuck wants it. He even thought it was worth upwards of 14k stock. For a 2000 S2k. With 126k miles.
This is the typical S2k owner, in my experience. Not trying to bash on him, but people have very delusional ideas of what their car is worth. Yeah, it's a nice looking car, but at its core it's a 2000 S2k with 126k miles on it.
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 228
Likes: 0
Another annoying aspect of S2k sales is that everyone and their mom thinks they can recoup the cost of mods on the sale of their car.
Take the Turbo s2k in IL fs on here right now. He wants 22.5k for a 2000 S2k, turbo'd, rebuilt ish on it, 126k miles... That car is literally worth ~10k. I wrote to him asking if he was negotiable and he wouldn't go down more than a few thousand. That car will never, ever, in 500 years sell for 18k unless a total schmuck wants it. He even thought it was worth upwards of 14k stock. For a 2000 S2k. With 126k miles.
This is the typical S2k owner, in my experience. Not trying to bash on him, but people have very delusional ideas of what their car is worth. Yeah, it's a nice looking car, but at its core it's a 2000 S2k with 126k miles on it.
Take the Turbo s2k in IL fs on here right now. He wants 22.5k for a 2000 S2k, turbo'd, rebuilt ish on it, 126k miles... That car is literally worth ~10k. I wrote to him asking if he was negotiable and he wouldn't go down more than a few thousand. That car will never, ever, in 500 years sell for 18k unless a total schmuck wants it. He even thought it was worth upwards of 14k stock. For a 2000 S2k. With 126k miles.
This is the typical S2k owner, in my experience. Not trying to bash on him, but people have very delusional ideas of what their car is worth. Yeah, it's a nice looking car, but at its core it's a 2000 S2k with 126k miles on it.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,128
Likes: 19
FI S2000s seem to sell for quite a premium. Usually the value is the used value of the vehicle plus the used value of the kit. Since used FI kits in good shape sell for about 70% of new value, you can easily be adding 4k to the base value of an S2k.
I have seen this trend as good FI kits have become ubiquitous in enthusiast circles. Especially cars that are generally perceived to have a factory power deficit. A well designed FI kit can be righting some of the OEM wrongs.
Good supercharged Vettes seem to go for value plus mods, its the same with S2ks. Hack jobs aside, there are not to many well sorted, FI S2ks for less than 20k.
I have seen this trend as good FI kits have become ubiquitous in enthusiast circles. Especially cars that are generally perceived to have a factory power deficit. A well designed FI kit can be righting some of the OEM wrongs.
Good supercharged Vettes seem to go for value plus mods, its the same with S2ks. Hack jobs aside, there are not to many well sorted, FI S2ks for less than 20k.
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 988
Likes: 13
FI S2000s seem to sell for quite a premium. Usually the value is the used value of the vehicle plus the used value of the kit. Since used FI kits in good shape sell for about 70% of new value, you can easily be adding 4k to the base value of an S2k.I have seen this trend as good FI kits have become ubiquitous in enthusiast circles. Especially cars that are generally perceived to have a factory power deficit. A well designed FI kit can be righting some of the OEM wrongs.Good supercharged Vettes seem to go for value plus mods, its the same with S2ks. Hack jobs aside, there are not to many well sorted, FI S2ks for less than 20k.
I think you're right!
The challenge for me would be to tell a "well sorted" FI S2000 from a hack job!