Why is it that there are so many...
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,610
Likes: 1
From: Clearlake, CA
I've noticed many similarities in the posts about "I crashed without reason". My favorite is the 55 on a 70 highway. Later we learn it was a turn (even a slight turn is still a turn). Later we learn it was wet. I don't see any reason to be surprised that the S2000, or any RWD, could swing around in that circumstance.
I've driven true mid-engine (ie, engine behind driver) RWD cars all my life, and I've had two similar experiences to the above in them, only at lower speeds (35 on a 55 wet highway). Got into a slight turn, next thing I know I'm stopped at the shoulder on the other side of the highway (ie, from slow lane to fast) looking at oncoming traffic.
Was it the cars fault? No! Most likely I was not smooth enough on the turn (ie, too much input on the steering) or I hit an oily patch. All the mid engine cars I've owned (like my Bertone) liked to spin the rear around.
Here's a few simple rules I think are true:
1. there is no such thing as a 100% perfect car
2. you can improve the handling/performance of any car
3. any handling modification to any car will have consequences, good and bad
4. no driver knows how to drive @ 8/10 or above a car they have not driven before.
5. If you want to REALLY learn to drive at 8/10 and above, find a safe way to learn, like the track, AutoX, or a large empty parking lot.
If you take the above into account, and then learn the car (again, any car, not just the S2000) you will then begin to be able to say whether you might prefer this or that modification, different tires, etc.
In keeping with the title of this thread, I really believe that most accidents (in any car) are due to one or both of a) not paying attention, b) not having learned how to drive that car. The later is not at all the same as knowing how to drive!
The S2000 specifically is a convertible that handles like a performance coup, but it is less forgiving of errors, especially as delivered by Honda. Can it be "improved"? Yes...but I really have to wonder whether that would help...or just encourage people to push the car even further. Also, while mods like traction control might really help the casual driver (at top for example), I would only want such things as options (or be able to turn them off) so as to retain the exceptional roadster characteristics of the car...including those features that make it "unsafe". Some things, like bump steer, I do not know anything about and those may be mods that Honda should make...but even with those mods you will still be able to crash the car.
To finalize this overly long post, I'll just say that I could not agree more with JRM's statement about accountability.
I've driven true mid-engine (ie, engine behind driver) RWD cars all my life, and I've had two similar experiences to the above in them, only at lower speeds (35 on a 55 wet highway). Got into a slight turn, next thing I know I'm stopped at the shoulder on the other side of the highway (ie, from slow lane to fast) looking at oncoming traffic.
Was it the cars fault? No! Most likely I was not smooth enough on the turn (ie, too much input on the steering) or I hit an oily patch. All the mid engine cars I've owned (like my Bertone) liked to spin the rear around.
Here's a few simple rules I think are true:
1. there is no such thing as a 100% perfect car
2. you can improve the handling/performance of any car
3. any handling modification to any car will have consequences, good and bad
4. no driver knows how to drive @ 8/10 or above a car they have not driven before.
5. If you want to REALLY learn to drive at 8/10 and above, find a safe way to learn, like the track, AutoX, or a large empty parking lot.
If you take the above into account, and then learn the car (again, any car, not just the S2000) you will then begin to be able to say whether you might prefer this or that modification, different tires, etc.
In keeping with the title of this thread, I really believe that most accidents (in any car) are due to one or both of a) not paying attention, b) not having learned how to drive that car. The later is not at all the same as knowing how to drive!
The S2000 specifically is a convertible that handles like a performance coup, but it is less forgiving of errors, especially as delivered by Honda. Can it be "improved"? Yes...but I really have to wonder whether that would help...or just encourage people to push the car even further. Also, while mods like traction control might really help the casual driver (at top for example), I would only want such things as options (or be able to turn them off) so as to retain the exceptional roadster characteristics of the car...including those features that make it "unsafe". Some things, like bump steer, I do not know anything about and those may be mods that Honda should make...but even with those mods you will still be able to crash the car.
To finalize this overly long post, I'll just say that I could not agree more with JRM's statement about accountability.
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Joined: Nov 2001
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From: :spam:u
Jason,
I will not dispute the bump steer issue with you as you are most probably correct that the S2000 has an amount larger than we would like.
That being said I ask this;
Do you really feel that "bump steer" is the reason for people wrecking their S2000s on the street?
...and if so how do you explain why so many of us have no problem driving this car quickly on the street?
I will not dispute the bump steer issue with you as you are most probably correct that the S2000 has an amount larger than we would like.
That being said I ask this;
Do you really feel that "bump steer" is the reason for people wrecking their S2000s on the street?
...and if so how do you explain why so many of us have no problem driving this car quickly on the street?
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,445
Likes: 0
From: Chicago
Originally posted by Bieg
Jason,
Do you really feel that "bump steer" is the reason for people wrecking their S2000s on the street?
...and if so how do you explain why so many of us have no problem driving this car quickly on the street?
Jason,
Do you really feel that "bump steer" is the reason for people wrecking their S2000s on the street?
...and if so how do you explain why so many of us have no problem driving this car quickly on the street?
Which brings me to part B. - So many of us have gone without incident because we are experienced enough to know what 8 or 9/10ths feels like and we don't push harder than that on the street. Furthermore, if we do misjudge a corner it will not be by a large margin, allowing us to catch the slide. Taking that a step further, we probably have more experience catching slides, making it easier for us to catch the car.
As I said earlier, this is definitely a car that demands respect and talent to exploit. I'll never debate that. It also demands that you bring the tires up to temp, and have them at proper pressures (anywhere from 32-36) But I will say that the bump-steer causes unnecessary instability over bumpy surfaces at high-speed with no alternative benefit. There is no positive aspect to bump-steer. Could a couple of cars have been saved if the car had less bump-steer? I think so. Does that remove the accountability from the driver? Certainly NOT! That, we are in agreement on!
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 334
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From: Austin
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bieg
[B]
Funny when people give you an answer that does not fit into your preconcieved notion of what the problem is you claim the topic is "off track".
"How many female drivers on this board have wrecked their cars?"
[B]
Funny when people give you an answer that does not fit into your preconcieved notion of what the problem is you claim the topic is "off track".
"How many female drivers on this board have wrecked their cars?"
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 302
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From: CA
A couple of comments, sorry if I am preaching to the choir again:
On bump-steer, I am going to have to do some more testing to see if I can identify the issue people are talking about here. One thing I will say though has to due with the rubber bushings. In a corner under lateral acceleration, the bushings will compress resulting potentially in change in camber and toe. Current Porsche suspensions use this fact to create a little passive rear wheel steering during cornering. In other words, alignment settings are purposely designed to change dynamically to improve response and handling. I have no idea what Honda considered in their suspension design. But I do suspect that looking just at wheel travel does not necessarily supply you with enough information to evaluate and suggest general improvements.
On oversteer, dang guys, with factory settings on factory tires my car had gross understeer in grippy conditions. Haven't you run at the limit on a cloverleaf and seen this understeer? Maybe my car is different than everyone else's. Anyway, I have been working hard to get rid of this understeer and now the balance of my car is nearly as good as the open wheel car that I race. And I know that the race car is set up well. Even with these improvements my Honda still has a slight understeering tendency at the limit in high speed corners on the track. Maybe some of you have never driven a truly balanced car in a high speed corner. If you are not feeling some rear slip angle you are not there yet.
On spinning, well if you are a performance driver you WILL see an incipient spin someday. It is inevitable. Rather than try to fix the car so it will not happen, an impossible task in my opinion, why not try to train yourself to better deal with the situation when it comes up? There are a lot of ways to do this, car control clinics, driver training, and so on. One thing I would like to point out especially is vision. Where you are looking during an incipient spin is probably the most important thing for recovery. Look where you want to go rather than at what you are trying to avoid hitting. If you do this you will better sense the changing yaw rates and chances are that your hands will do the right thing. But you need to practice this to get it right.
On bump-steer, I am going to have to do some more testing to see if I can identify the issue people are talking about here. One thing I will say though has to due with the rubber bushings. In a corner under lateral acceleration, the bushings will compress resulting potentially in change in camber and toe. Current Porsche suspensions use this fact to create a little passive rear wheel steering during cornering. In other words, alignment settings are purposely designed to change dynamically to improve response and handling. I have no idea what Honda considered in their suspension design. But I do suspect that looking just at wheel travel does not necessarily supply you with enough information to evaluate and suggest general improvements.
On oversteer, dang guys, with factory settings on factory tires my car had gross understeer in grippy conditions. Haven't you run at the limit on a cloverleaf and seen this understeer? Maybe my car is different than everyone else's. Anyway, I have been working hard to get rid of this understeer and now the balance of my car is nearly as good as the open wheel car that I race. And I know that the race car is set up well. Even with these improvements my Honda still has a slight understeering tendency at the limit in high speed corners on the track. Maybe some of you have never driven a truly balanced car in a high speed corner. If you are not feeling some rear slip angle you are not there yet.
On spinning, well if you are a performance driver you WILL see an incipient spin someday. It is inevitable. Rather than try to fix the car so it will not happen, an impossible task in my opinion, why not try to train yourself to better deal with the situation when it comes up? There are a lot of ways to do this, car control clinics, driver training, and so on. One thing I would like to point out especially is vision. Where you are looking during an incipient spin is probably the most important thing for recovery. Look where you want to go rather than at what you are trying to avoid hitting. If you do this you will better sense the changing yaw rates and chances are that your hands will do the right thing. But you need to practice this to get it right.
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 45,699
Likes: 8,219
From: Mish-she-gan
Wecome Mike, glad to have you join the debate. I quess I'm not a performance driver yet (no S2k spins in 8k miles). Does the pucker factor count? I was curious how all your skid pad tweeking would carry over to the fast track; interesting results.
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 45,699
Likes: 8,219
From: Mish-she-gan
Originally posted by Cedric Tomkinson
So... Is this true?
Are we talking about Jimmy 325? (The poster rather than the writer)
If so,....
So... Is this true?
Are we talking about Jimmy 325? (The poster rather than the writer)
If so,....
