Lexus Performance Credibility
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Since we are talking about Lexus...
Here is Jeremy's thoughts on IS-F vs. M3
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwaYyabTr7c [/media]&feature=related
Here is Jeremy's thoughts on IS-F vs. M3
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwaYyabTr7c [/media]&feature=related
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From: Scottsdale
Originally Posted by Gymkata,Jan 11 2011, 11:48 AM
Since we are talking about Lexus...
Here is Jeremy's thoughts on IS-F vs. M3
Here is Jeremy's thoughts on IS-F vs. M3
reviews of the 2011 have been night and day
Give them time...
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From: Toronto
Originally Posted by fishfryer,Jan 11 2011, 01:31 PM
Lamborghini isn't all that huge in racing, but they do make a few speedy sports cars.
But I think more than the engineering innovations learned/developed in racing it is the culture of a company that supports racing also foster a better environment and passion for sports car development.
But I think more than the engineering innovations learned/developed in racing it is the culture of a company that supports racing also foster a better environment and passion for sports car development.
It's mostly Audi/VW R&D which is enabling them to produce such cars now.
Biggest cost in launching any car is the R&D involved. If a manufacturer can scale their R&D over different platforms and over racing/road cars, they usually end up with winners.
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Originally Posted by dombey,Jan 11 2011, 12:13 PM
first model of the IS-F...vs the 10 millionth iteration of the M3
reviews of the 2011 have been night and day
Give them time...
reviews of the 2011 have been night and day
Give them time...
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Originally Posted by exb00st,Jan 11 2011, 03:18 PM
^Any new comparos of the '11 models?
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9Y1tkEQfK8 [/media]&feature=related
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8J07JgJ4dg [/media]&feature=related
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_-IVfwU6v0 [/media]&feature=related
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From: La Habra
I imagine Toyota is capable of serious sporting machines, something most of us could buy (like a 370Z), but makes a conscious decision not to. I don't think it has jack-all to do with their racing program. Sure, racing experience trickles down but what racing program had that much to do with Nissan's 370Z (to stick to a concrete example) or the Honda S2000 (hitting even closer to home)?
Some of our complaints about Honda's line apply to Toyota. It seems the money isn't made on performance machines as much as luxo barges and grocery-getters.
To make a serious popular sporting machine all they have to do is set a team on that task and sprinkle them liberally with cash. Preferably a team using something like a "west coast" design center, similar to how Hyundai's style evolved so well. It requires passion for something beyond comfortable transportation. But it doesn't require skills that can't be easily bought.
Something like a sports package for the IS or GS is just putting lipstick on a pig.
Some of our complaints about Honda's line apply to Toyota. It seems the money isn't made on performance machines as much as luxo barges and grocery-getters.
To make a serious popular sporting machine all they have to do is set a team on that task and sprinkle them liberally with cash. Preferably a team using something like a "west coast" design center, similar to how Hyundai's style evolved so well. It requires passion for something beyond comfortable transportation. But it doesn't require skills that can't be easily bought.
Something like a sports package for the IS or GS is just putting lipstick on a pig.
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Originally Posted by whiteflash,Jan 9 2011, 08:28 PM
I find it funny that Lexus is often compared to BMW, and MB.... and while their vehicles may attempt to do many similar things, at similar pricepoints their brands are wildly different. Lexus is however comparable to Audi.
Let's first of all think about what Lexus is. Lexus is first and foremost, an upgraded Toyota. These aren't exactly original chassis', original designs. BMW is it's mainstream brand, same with Mercedes (although they do have Maybach, but that's so out there it's not even relevant to this convorsation).
First off I want to say of all the mainstream German flavors, Audi is my overall favorite. I love their design, their interior, their performance.... the total package to me. However, I'm not one to fool myself into thinking that the Audi 'racing' line is quite at the same level as its M and AMG counter-parts. Quite frankly, you can only take a DD VW chassis/design and push it so far, before you hit its limits, the same can be said for Lexus performance being bred from its lower level Toyota brethren.
In short I think Lexus shoulda not over-extend itself, and continue to do what they do, as they do it quite well. They're well engineered, good looking, comfortable, technological, and most their most important asset; reliable. IMO the only way for Lexus/Audi to really directly compete against MB/BMW would be to design their cars from the top of the tree down, but this would put a strain on their cash-cow, lower end markets as those prices would likely jump.
In short, unless Lexus seperated itself completely from Toyota, I see no problem with its current brand structure.
Let's first of all think about what Lexus is. Lexus is first and foremost, an upgraded Toyota. These aren't exactly original chassis', original designs. BMW is it's mainstream brand, same with Mercedes (although they do have Maybach, but that's so out there it's not even relevant to this convorsation).
First off I want to say of all the mainstream German flavors, Audi is my overall favorite. I love their design, their interior, their performance.... the total package to me. However, I'm not one to fool myself into thinking that the Audi 'racing' line is quite at the same level as its M and AMG counter-parts. Quite frankly, you can only take a DD VW chassis/design and push it so far, before you hit its limits, the same can be said for Lexus performance being bred from its lower level Toyota brethren.
In short I think Lexus shoulda not over-extend itself, and continue to do what they do, as they do it quite well. They're well engineered, good looking, comfortable, technological, and most their most important asset; reliable. IMO the only way for Lexus/Audi to really directly compete against MB/BMW would be to design their cars from the top of the tree down, but this would put a strain on their cash-cow, lower end markets as those prices would likely jump.
In short, unless Lexus seperated itself completely from Toyota, I see no problem with its current brand structure.
As far as cars go, the only Lexus that is actually an upgraded Toyota is the ES. I don't think they are fooling anyone there.
There is no Toyota equivalent to the IS, GS, or LS; which I believe are what most people think of when they imagine a Lexus. If you don't understand that, it's a little pointless to go any further in the conversation.
The objective of Lexus is to make money in the long term. The average luxury car buyer (new cars) in their mid 50's probably thinks an M or AMG model is an idiotic concept. Those models erode most of the finer attributes of a luxury car (road noise, ride quality, etc.) and increase their price substantially. Sure for a driving enthusiast it's a great combination, but that should be allocated a very small amount of resources, much of which is for brand management, not actually attempting to profit from a certain tiny segment of the car buying population.
The opinions of how boring a Lexus is to drive seem a little misplaced. They sell the most luxury cars. They have found what works and implement it well. It shouldn't surprise anyone that an effortless and often numb driving experience is what most people want then they purchase a luxury (note not sports) car.
People make the differences between the luxury brand's chracteristics during daily use (not beating the $hit out of the cars which <1% of the new luxury car buyers will do) to be way more substantial than they are. Last I checked most people spend almost the entire time in their car going straight on a highway or sitting in city traffic. What percentage of 45-65 yr old people give a $hit if the steering feel in the BMW is a little better (this is mostly because it's heavier IMO) in these situations? And people say they need to add racing seats and retune the fuel map to get more sales??
Lexus developed and refined the reliable luxury car. The LS is extremely fuel efficient (better than the s2000 with 380hp and while weighing two tons) and was the first car with an 8spd auto tranny. It drives effortlessly on the highway and doesn't need any real maintenance until 100k miles just like a camry.
Now which car would I take for free? **** yea it would be an M5. Now what if I had to pay for it and keep the car for ten years like many regular consumers probably plan on doing and primarily using it for my work commute in annoying traffic? LS.