It absolutely is a generational thing.

http://aspeneducation.crchealth.com/...e-entitlement/

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/30/op...anted=all&_r=0

You know what they call millennials?

THE ENTITLED GENERATION.

I have very high standards. Extremely high standards which allow me to do well and prosper. I just don't expect, nor demand others have or perform to those standards all the time. Especially if I am not paying them very much.

And I am agreeing with you regarding facts.
I think we are going to see welds break and someone have a problem.
I think some of those welds are sad.

But I think the entitlement is misplaced. It's a cheap pan within a few hundred of a baffled pan (when cleaning time of a used OEM pan factored in or buying a new pan with simple baffle welded in).

I'll pull the pan in a few years and check the welds. If they're broken, then I'll try and figure out what went wrong.
If they're fine, then they're fine for my use.

Heck, I could even use it as an excuse to buy new toys:
http://www.tooldiscounter.com/ItemDi...le&kw=SLIPV300

A lighted borescope I could feed in the drain plug and check for baffle cracks….

 

If I didn't expect much from the pan, I wouldn't have bothered with sending them my money. You could have just purchased that stuff with the money saved from not buying the pan.




I wasn't raised that way. I was raised by a hard-ass of a dad diesel mechanic, turned aircraft mechanic/crew chief, turned fighter pilot, turned airline pilot. If I didn't do something right, he wasn't happy. There was nothing "entitled" about my life.



Then I fail to see the point in every buying the pan, despite discounts. I can "not expect much" from my stock pan.



Good to see this written out.

 

I've got a lighted bore scope. I think it would be tough to snake in to see the rear weld or the welds on inside the diamond.

 

Yup. We are agreeing on the facts.
What we choose to do with those facts and the emotion attached to those facts are where we differ.

I think an Accusump and oil cooler + OEM pan (+/- baffle) would have been just fine.

But I figured, "why not" try something else in case it was better. I think there was someone who lost a motor to a baffled OEM pan even with an Accusump, IIRC due to banking on track that overwhelmed the ability of the Accusump.

Class rules don't let us dry sump, so I figured we'd just try the pan and it's worked reasonably well so far.
You bet I'm going to check it for cracked welds now instead of "setting it and forgetting it," so I thank you for some of the information in this thread.

But for me, it's too early to judge. It's been fine for me so far.

 

Yep, but if everything was separating to the point of dislodgment and imminent failure you might be able to see evidence of that.
Or even be able to poke the walls with the scope to see if they are loose.

It's probability. If I have an 80% chance that the pan will work 3 years without breaking a weld and 95% chance that I'd be able to discover multiple fractures before imminent failure with a borescope, those odds would be acceptable for me. I'd consider that "ok" for what I paid and "doing something" worth the cost difference over an OEM pan.

Someone else might want 99% guarantee of no broken welds in 3 years and 99.9% guarantee of no dislodgment ever.
It's just where we set expectation of ongoing maintenance and care.

 

On another car, I have also lost a motor with an Accusump installed. That's why I was looking for a good pan.

Good point on the bore scope.

 

I am really glad the issues with this pan have been brought to light in this thread. I was very close to pre-ordering this pan, then decided I've learned my lesson and didn't want to be the beta tester for it. I really wanted this pan to be great, but I didn't want to deal with all the frustration dealing with early issues, my time is valuable to me.

When I make a decision to purchase a product I like to have all the facts so I can make an informed decision.

So far it looks like issues with this pan have been:
- Not perfectly straight so may leak if not enough sealer is used
- Cracks/broken welds are happening, so they are possible
- Poor cooling properties
- Need to remove windage tray and flywheel cover issues

These aren't huge issues by themselves, but with my money I have decided to go with the Morso weld in trap door baffle and a brand new OEM pan. It won't have any of these issues except for potential broken welds on the baffle. I am taking it to a very proficient welder in my area so hopefully those risks are minimized.

Thanks for getting this pan made and I'm sure lots of people will be happy with it. If I had not known about the issues and had oil leaking or broken welds and had to send it back to the manufacturer, I would not be happy.

 

I agree that it's good some issues have been discussed and brought forward I would like to clarify the extent of the summary, as the number of posts is disproportionatly larger than the number of pans with issues.

1. Some peoples pan's have not had a perfectly straight rail, but all have eventually sealed properly.

2. Two people had a broken weld, one or two other people had a pinhole leak in a weld.

3. One person has attempted to measure oil temps in a valid way to compare temps, but on the street. But temps were still in normal ranges for the usual track day sessions.

4. Some people have decided to remove the OEM windage tray instead of trimming it. Flywheel cover doesn't fit on AP2's and a few aftermarket flywheels. Fits fine on AP1's, and other aftermarket flywheels.

Given that Canton is a well respected builder of oil control systems, including baffled pans, it seems valid that these quality control issues were indeed caused by a new employee not normally doing QC put in that position when the usual person responsible for it was on an emergency medical leave, per information from Jeff. It seems reasonable that these QC issues may not be apparent in pans produced for the future.

As far as I know, about 60-70 pans have been produced by now, perhaps more.

I may be off by a few instances. People can correct me if needed. I welcome any corrections to the number instances, but request that any corrections be simply that, and not a rehash of the problems themselves as have already been extensively discussed (at least if you reference my post).

Thank you all.

 

David,

Do you have any idea—I'm not implying you should; I'm asking honestly, not sarcastically or in an attempt to be a condescending douche—how many Canton pans were sold with the mounting plate/bosses for the OEM A/C compressor? Am I the only one on s2ki who has had an issue with how the A/C compressor bracket fit the Canton pan?

Aside from what IMO was fairly poor customer service overall from Canton, I had ZERO ISSUES OR COMPLAINTS with the fitment of my first 15-966 Canton pan, which did NOT have the welded-on plate/bosses for the A/C compressor bracket, other than for some reason the OEM dipstick would sometimes get stuck and require a very hard yank to remove (something that never happened with the OEM oil pan, of course).

Note that my S2000 is a 2003 AP1 with an OEM flywheel, which is likely why I had no issues with the fitment of the flywheel cover plate. I had read on s2ki about issues with the Canton pan fitting with the OEM windage tray in place, so I removed it and didn't even try to test-fit the Canton pan with the OEM baffle plate.

This first pan did not leak or crack, nor did it suffer a broken weld inside at the baffle plate as hondaplovr13's did. I used it for four track weekends (each a two-day Time Trials events with NASA, roughly 110–120 on-track miles per weekend) as well as several local autocross events and occasional street driving without issues. Those track weekends were at Miller Motorsports Park in UT (east course), High Plains Raceway in CO, Motorsports Park Hastings in NE, and Pueblo Motorsports Park in CO. I had a minor four-off once at Miller (left the track surface at around 45 mph but didn't hit anything; video here) but I didn't go off at any of the other three tracks.

I should probably clarify that my first, non-A/C Canton pan was NOT part of the "beta product group buy" here on s2ki, and that I bought it June 11, 2014, for the full retail price of $516 (+ $10.80 for the #22-370 allen bolt kit + $26.77 shipping).

The second Canton pan I purchased (at a discounted rate, because of the snafu with the first pan not accommodating the A/C compressor bracket) cracked and leaked oil at the A/C compressor mounting plate, and from a pinhole within the bead of a weld at the other end of the pan. Due to the date when I received the second pan (late August 2014), I am assuming this pan was also a finalized-design unit—i.e., not a "beta" pan.

I used the second Canton pan at SCCA Solo Nationals in Lincoln, where the car was subjected to about a dozen practice runs and then exactly 12 autocross competition runs (I had a codriver; no reruns). Then I did one additional track day (open lapping, where I did close to 200 miles on-track) with the A/C-version Canton pan. The oil pan started leaking profusely after that (by which I mean enough oil leaked out of it when I parked the car in my garage that the oil pool under the car was more than two feet wide under the pan and extended past the length of the car... probably an 1/8 to 1/4 quart's worth).

I believe my second Canton pan cracked and started leaking badly because the fitment of the three bosses for the A/C bracket is off by about 1/16", which caused enough stress on the plate over time to cause it to crack. Obviously, this specific failure would not happen on the Canton pans that don't have the A/C bracket plate/bosses.

And before anyone suggests that I'm being a candyass for wanting to have A/C on his "race car," I'll quote myself from a page back:

 

I'll add my whole two cents to this discussion.

I agree with both sides of this discussion.

I completely agree with Ckit's assessment, and I am very happy that Canton took on this project. I'm also happy that they offered discounts on oil coolers and accusumps. I took advantage of the oil cooler pricing.

That said, I also see yamahaSHO's points as well, and am partially in agreement.


My take on all of this and what I did.

I've been debating installing the pan for quite some time. In the end, I ended up selling the pan (before this thread blew up like this).

The biggest thing that ended up tipping my decision was the flywheel cover, which was unacceptable for me based on my current needs. Life changes, and along with it my automotive stable and future plans...

The original plan was the s2000 was going to be a track-street vehicle, seeing approximately 70% track/canyon cruising time and 30% street time. Under this intended use, I had no problems with the Canton Pan as it is and even the flywheel cover (although I didn't like it). I would have another vehicle that would cover the majority of my DD and street needs. Thus, I had no problems treating the car as a street legal "racecar" of sorts. I didn't mind a little bit of DIY and tinkering if it meant superior oil starvation protection.

However, fast forward to today, and certain life plans have changed quite significantly.

My project DD was sold. Additionally, I do not have the free time I thought I was going to have. I also anticipate having less free time in the future. I'm down to two vehicles (oh poor me with my first world problems) - a truck and my s2000. Gas prices are great now, but I don't plan for it to stay that way for long and thus am not planning to use my 13mpg truck for DDing. My s2000 will be seeing more street time than initially planned and will be less "racecar". I will not have the luxury, leisure, or time to chase things down, DIY, or worry about these things going wrong. In a pinch, I still have my truck as needed (should anything catastrophic happen on track). this is where the flywheel cover comes into play. I have an AP2 with OEM fly - I know the cover won't fit, and for a street vehicle that will be assigned to more DD activities, this is unacceptable.

I have opted to purchase a Blacktrax pan as a replacement. It's true OEM fitment and shouldn't give me any of the problems associated here, other than broken welds - which as we have seen is also a possibility with the Canton Pan. Blacktrax offers a lifetime warranty on the pan and the welds. I figure I can pull the pan every 2-3 years to check the status of the pan (something i should be doing anyway, and something I'd also have to do with the Canton pan). Additionally, Hartanto raced on this pan and won the SCCA run-offs with it and managed not to blow a motor up doing dual classes ( USTCC GT and STU), even with a super charger and some super sticky rubber. I'm nowhere near as capable a driver and not running anywhere near the same level prep car. i think my car will survive with the Blacktrax pan while retaining OEM fitment and quality.

Pricing wise, with Canton's beta pricing and the lower cost of the Blacktrax pan, it's pretty much a dead break-even. So, essentially, I got to purchase an oil cooler kit at a discounted price .

TL;DR

For a dedicated racecar/track car, the Canton pan would still be my choice.

For a street car that NEEDS to be assigned to other duties, but sees occasional track time, the Canton Pan, and more specifically, the flywheel cover, does not meet my requirements.

If I had to do it all over again, I would still have participated in the group buy for the pan...