Harsh C&D CR Review
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Originally Posted by UKXotics,Mar 19 2008, 11:06 AM
That's just not right... The CR is NOT simply a "badge engineered special edition." I explained this a few posts ago, but I guess I didn't make my point well.
Forget about the CR for a second... Let's say you want a regular old S2000. Now lets say you want to use it for track days and some autocross. What do you do to the car? Number one thing is put some decent tires on it. After that, you likely want better body control so you can get maximum benefit from your tires, so you tighten the suspension up a little bit. A hardtop is nice for aerodynamic reasons (which I suspect is the true benefit, as opposed to safety), and the functional aero is.. functional. What's the complaint there? The quicker steering ratio is sort of icing on the cake, but probably welcome in transitions. Likewise, the fabric seats are going to give you a slight but probably tangible increase in comfort and/or safety on track (because you won't slide as much).
Take out the softtop for weight savings (and the Ac and radio too, depending on how much daily driveability you are willing to compromise on) and you have the same effect as you would adding a slight bump in power (until you are dealing with top-end drag, in which case more power is better than lower weight).
To sum up -- everything Honda did makes the car a better performance car, and SOME of the things Honda did make it marginally less desirable as a daily driver, but two of those three things (radio/ac) are the choice of the buyer. I fail to understand what the issue is here from a enthusiast standpoint. From a MARKETING standpoint a power bump would probably sell more cars but the changes Honda made will result in a *better performing car* (i.e. one that turns better times at an autocross or on any track other than a dragstrip or an oval with two straights and two hairpins).
Forget about the CR for a second... Let's say you want a regular old S2000. Now lets say you want to use it for track days and some autocross. What do you do to the car? Number one thing is put some decent tires on it. After that, you likely want better body control so you can get maximum benefit from your tires, so you tighten the suspension up a little bit. A hardtop is nice for aerodynamic reasons (which I suspect is the true benefit, as opposed to safety), and the functional aero is.. functional. What's the complaint there? The quicker steering ratio is sort of icing on the cake, but probably welcome in transitions. Likewise, the fabric seats are going to give you a slight but probably tangible increase in comfort and/or safety on track (because you won't slide as much).
Take out the softtop for weight savings (and the Ac and radio too, depending on how much daily driveability you are willing to compromise on) and you have the same effect as you would adding a slight bump in power (until you are dealing with top-end drag, in which case more power is better than lower weight).
To sum up -- everything Honda did makes the car a better performance car, and SOME of the things Honda did make it marginally less desirable as a daily driver, but two of those three things (radio/ac) are the choice of the buyer. I fail to understand what the issue is here from a enthusiast standpoint. From a MARKETING standpoint a power bump would probably sell more cars but the changes Honda made will result in a *better performing car* (i.e. one that turns better times at an autocross or on any track other than a dragstrip or an oval with two straights and two hairpins).
As I said. I own this car for several reasons, above all of the other choices. I can drive pretty much any car I want, and I chose the S.
I would sell my S and buy a CR today, if Honda had bothered to go the CSP route. Give me proper fixed caliper brakes for feel and fade free stops, decent shocks, race seats, lose some significant weight, and a legal roll bar. (Make it slightly faster to shame the S honda fanboyz.) Yes, I could do all of that on my own, and will. But it is much better to have a fully engineered package from the factory (ABS and cost for two reasons).
They took the easiest possible way out.
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[QUOTE=UKXotics,Mar 19 2008, 12:38 PM]The assembly line has been in place for years - taking out the softtop and the seats saves them the cost of materials, nothing more, and even assuming the hardtop is a dead even trade with the softtop, you are NEVER EVER EVER EVER going to convince me that the leather seats have an actual cost to Honda of 16 THOUSAND DOLLARS, or even a cost that is substantially more than that of the fabric CR seats.
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From: Lexington, Ky
Originally Posted by INTJ,Mar 19 2008, 11:28 AM
True enthusiast? You are entitled to your opinion.
A true enthusiast would be well aware that sequential shifters were part of the original concept for the s2k, but of course you and the mensa guy knew that. As true enthusiasts. Spewage is all I saw in that and your jingoistic diatribe.
I complain because instead of giving us a significant improvement, say the M3 CSP or any equivalent, they went for a marketing effort. That is a GM-level effort and any "enthusiast" would know the difference.
A true enthusiast would be well aware that sequential shifters were part of the original concept for the s2k, but of course you and the mensa guy knew that. As true enthusiasts. Spewage is all I saw in that and your jingoistic diatribe.
I complain because instead of giving us a significant improvement, say the M3 CSP or any equivalent, they went for a marketing effort. That is a GM-level effort and any "enthusiast" would know the difference.
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From: Houston
Originally Posted by Ruprecht,Mar 19 2008, 01:24 PM
If you take all retail prices and cut them in half, or cut them by 75% across the board, then net out the parts omitted against the parts added, the consumer still loses. In a big way.
) the consumer is essentailly getting the aero effects, the steering rack change, and the body reinforcement for the difference in price. I don't think the retail price being asked is *necessarily* out of line for those enhancements. But as I said, I'm cool with agreeing to disagree - different strokes for different folks and all 
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From: Dry Branch
Well, I predicted this. We have AP1 owners who hate the AP2, and we have AP2 owners that hate the AP1, and every time Honda has changed the car, we've had people arguing over the merits of those changes, even when it was just a minor thing like the changes in the MY02 car. Since every other change that has been made has found both fans and detractors, why would anyone expect the CR to be any different?
On the upside, I can at least say to some of the people here ...
"I told you so." 
The more variations Honda offers, the more bandwidth we waste on this kind of crap. If this thread is any indication of the future of S2kI, I'll be letting my membership lapse when it comes up for renewal.
On the upside, I can at least say to some of the people here ...
"I told you so."
The more variations Honda offers, the more bandwidth we waste on this kind of crap. If this thread is any indication of the future of S2kI, I'll be letting my membership lapse when it comes up for renewal.
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