first time in a ap2
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 6,223
Likes: 4
From: Orange County, CA
OK, let me further explain then.
I have an 02', bone stock other than a custom intake and exhaust setup and a set of ASA 17x8's with factory spec tires. The AP2 was bone stock as well, no intake or exhaust (like that would be a noticeable diff.).
Anyway, I drive the AP1 at it's limit quite often, and I know how to control it. After driving my 340whp Mazdaspeed Miata daily, the S is EASY. Yes, I said it. I live on a mountain road that leads to six houses, mine being the first. From the main highway to my house is about 7 miles of serpentine bliss, no other houses or people to endanger (had to get that out before someone "flames" me for driving recklessly on public roads, lmao). I test drove the AP2 on this road also, so there is equality here, no different setting/different scenario b.s. Let me make this simple, I don't feel like typing all day:
1. The AP2 has slow steering, compared to either my S or MSM. Not cool, I have an H3 for that.
2. The car is noticeably heavier than the AP1, at least to someone who uses chassis feedback on the regular.
3. 8K isn't 9K, obviously. Flashpro'ing your F22 to 8,500 WILL shorten the life of the internals, as Honda didn't design it to rev past 8 (note piston speed)
4. I had VSA turned OFF, and the car still isn't as visceral as the AP1, still too slow in its responses, to "floppy". Yay that they made it "safer" for inexperienced drivers (sigh).
So, from my short analysis, IMO, the AP1 wins. That is MY opinion, and I'm not defending the AP1 because I own one, just because, to a purist, it drives better. STOCK for STOCK, of course. Otherwise, I would have probably bought the AP2 for a backup (you know, in case of that "freak accident" that may occur driving the AP1 at it's limit so often
). Instead, I'm searching for a low mileage 02-03' AP1...
I have an 02', bone stock other than a custom intake and exhaust setup and a set of ASA 17x8's with factory spec tires. The AP2 was bone stock as well, no intake or exhaust (like that would be a noticeable diff.).
Anyway, I drive the AP1 at it's limit quite often, and I know how to control it. After driving my 340whp Mazdaspeed Miata daily, the S is EASY. Yes, I said it. I live on a mountain road that leads to six houses, mine being the first. From the main highway to my house is about 7 miles of serpentine bliss, no other houses or people to endanger (had to get that out before someone "flames" me for driving recklessly on public roads, lmao). I test drove the AP2 on this road also, so there is equality here, no different setting/different scenario b.s. Let me make this simple, I don't feel like typing all day:
1. The AP2 has slow steering, compared to either my S or MSM. Not cool, I have an H3 for that.
2. The car is noticeably heavier than the AP1, at least to someone who uses chassis feedback on the regular.
3. 8K isn't 9K, obviously. Flashpro'ing your F22 to 8,500 WILL shorten the life of the internals, as Honda didn't design it to rev past 8 (note piston speed)
4. I had VSA turned OFF, and the car still isn't as visceral as the AP1, still too slow in its responses, to "floppy". Yay that they made it "safer" for inexperienced drivers (sigh).
So, from my short analysis, IMO, the AP1 wins. That is MY opinion, and I'm not defending the AP1 because I own one, just because, to a purist, it drives better. STOCK for STOCK, of course. Otherwise, I would have probably bought the AP2 for a backup (you know, in case of that "freak accident" that may occur driving the AP1 at it's limit so often
). Instead, I'm searching for a low mileage 02-03' AP1...2. Exhaust would significantly lighten up the car. Depending on the exhaust, enough to make up the weight difference and then some.
3. 17x8 with factory spec tires? You managed to fit 16" tires on 17" rims? Even if you ran factory spec AP2 tires, the front is stretched and the rear is pinched, relatively speaking. This makes the car oversteer prone. The factory AP2 is VERY understeer prone (04-05), understeer prone (06-07), and fairly neutral with a hint of understeer (08-09). The CR understeers like a pig.
4. AUC is the same for both the F20C and F22C.
5. Refer to #3. Again, goes back to feedback.
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 6,223
Likes: 4
From: Orange County, CA
As for faster on a track, it is 100% dependent on the track.
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 6,223
Likes: 4
From: Orange County, CA
We did some heavy analysis on this in the R&C forum.
One thing to note is that the F20C has a more forgiving power curve, since you use both sides of the hump, whereas a F22C only gives you one side, and shifting early penalizes you a tiny bit more.
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 3,045
Likes: 45
From: Las Vegas
My point was that a car that makes more power isn't always going to be faster. Weight plays a role and that's the point I was making.
And in the case of the AP1 vs AP2... the AP1 is lighter. AP2 makes more power. HP/LB ratio is key.
Moderator
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 281,961
Likes: 442
From: Charleston, SC. \>
But no one has broken the rules yet. FYI different strokes for different folks so not one is really right or wrong. Well, except all of you. Cobalt SS > all.
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 4,742
Likes: 211
AUC is within 1%, assuming redline shifts, for both cars. Stock for stock, or bolted vs bolted on, it stays the same.
We did some heavy analysis on this in the R&C forum.
One thing to note is that the F20C has a more forgiving power curve, since you use both sides of the hump, whereas a F22C only gives you one side, and shifting early penalizes you a tiny bit more.
We did some heavy analysis on this in the R&C forum.
One thing to note is that the F20C has a more forgiving power curve, since you use both sides of the hump, whereas a F22C only gives you one side, and shifting early penalizes you a tiny bit more.
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 6,223
Likes: 4
From: Orange County, CA
AUC is within 1%, assuming redline shifts, for both cars. Stock for stock, or bolted vs bolted on, it stays the same.
We did some heavy analysis on this in the R&C forum.
One thing to note is that the F20C has a more forgiving power curve, since you use both sides of the hump, whereas a F22C only gives you one side, and shifting early penalizes you a tiny bit more.
We did some heavy analysis on this in the R&C forum.
One thing to note is that the F20C has a more forgiving power curve, since you use both sides of the hump, whereas a F22C only gives you one side, and shifting early penalizes you a tiny bit more.
A TP and tune yeields just as impressive numbers on a F20C. The only difference is that the F20C requires a full standalone to gain full benefits, whereas the DBW F22C's just need a flashpro.
I've spent plenty of time on the dyno and have multiple flashpro calibrations. Trust me. We've done the math.
Registered User
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 1,167
Likes: 1
From: Indiana
The great thing about the 06+ AP2's is that w/o spending too much money, you can make a big difference in terms of performance. A flashpro and testpipe make a giant difference, for minimal $.
I can't believe so many people got in a pissing match over which is better. Come on guys.. they're much closer in comparison than many of you make it out to be. You certainly can't go wrong with either car.
I can't believe so many people got in a pissing match over which is better. Come on guys.. they're much closer in comparison than many of you make it out to be. You certainly can't go wrong with either car.
I'm with this camp. $695 Flashpro + $100 eTune by the best in the business + $80 testpipe = completely transformed driving experience for under $900 from start to finish.
I have no doubt the F20 can produce similar results, although it will never have quite as much torque due to the lower displacement. What is the most cost-effective standalone for an AP1? Flashpro is just so huge, and for so little invested.