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Old Sep 7, 2006 | 02:10 PM
  #341  
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Originally Posted by paS2K,Sep 6 2006, 11:17 PM
.....so Hancock barely had a chance to do anything on Day 1.
Hancock had a major role on day 1 (not discussed in KA):

General Doubleday: Hancock "was our good genius, for he at once brought order out of confusion and made such admirable dispositions that he secured the ridge and held it."

At 1725, Hancock sends this word back to Meade:
General: When I arrived here an hour since, I found that our troops had given up the front of Gettysburg and the town. We have now taken up a position in the cemetery, and cannot well be taken. It is a position, however, easily turned. Slocum is now coming on the ground, and is taking position on the right, which will protect the right. But we have, as yet, no troops on the left, the Third Corps not having yet reported; but I suppose that it is marching up. If so, its flank march will in a degree protect our left flank. In the meantime Gibbon had better march on so as to take position on our right or left, to our rear, as may be necessary, in some commanding position. General G. will see this dispatch. The battle is quiet now. I think we will be all right until night. I have sent all the trains back. When night comes, it can be told better what had best be done. I think we can retire; if not, we can fight here, as the ground appears not unfavorable with good troops. I will communicate in a few moments with General Slocum, and transfer the command to him.
Howard says that Doubleday's command gave way. General Warren is here.

Your obedient servant,
Winf'd S. Hancock
Major-General, Commanding Corps.

Recall that Hancock was directed by Meade to take command on the field, and determine whether or not to make a stand on Cemetery Hill, or fall back to Pipe Creek. Hancock is making plans for either contingency. The decision is up to Meade.

Two of his corps were pushed back, he lost half of his fielded force on day 1. What should Meade do? As Lee said, Meade is new to command, he will be "cautious."
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Old Sep 7, 2006 | 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Legal Bill,Sep 7 2006, 01:18 PM
Earlier in this thread, Rob talked about his conclusions; that the book tells the tale of a tragedy with Lee as the tragic hero. Following on that thought, what do we see in chapter 6 that fits the classic formula of a tragedy?
Victory for the hero is so close..........and with Longstreet, we have the foreshadowing of impending disaster.
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Old Sep 7, 2006 | 07:26 PM
  #343  
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Originally Posted by Vitito,Sep 7 2006, 05:31 PM
Victory for the hero is so close..........and with Longstreet, we have the foreshadowing of impending disaster.
Not only that, but the tragedy of Lee is brought on by himself. For whatever reason he chooses to ignore the warning of Longstreet and commit to the attack. Lee is truly the tragic hero. He fails because of his own weakness.

Longstreet is much more than foreshadowing, although he is that too. He is the alternative course of action. He represents Lee's other choice, the one Lee chooses to ignore.
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Old Sep 8, 2006 | 03:22 AM
  #344  
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Originally Posted by Vitito,Sep 7 2006, 05:10 PM
Hancock had a major role on day 1 (not discussed in KA):

General: When I arrived here an hour since, I found that our ..... General Warren is here......
How does Gouveneur Warren factor into this, Vito? He was really the one who made scoped out their Achilles Heel. What was his role?
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Old Sep 8, 2006 | 02:13 PM
  #345  
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In classical tragedies there was, in addition to the hubris (defying the gods), and fatal error of the tragic hero, there was the involvement of a higher power (the gods) and a heavy dose of fate. The hero is swept along to the conclusion (death or disaster) of the drama, and through no real fault of his own -- except his fatal mistake--he always ends up suffering more than his action deserves. There are other versions of course, but these components are frequently present in a literary tragedy -- imitating a little piece of reality.

I think Rob was right earlier on in indicating that he could not really talk about the developing tragedy in the story without jumping far ahead to bring in elements that appear only later. But as of now Lee in Ch 6 looks very much like a canonical tragic hero.
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Old Sep 8, 2006 | 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by ralper,Sep 7 2006, 11:26 PM
Not only that, but the tragedy of Lee is brought on by himself. For whatever reason he chooses to ignore the warning of Longstreet and commit to the attack. Lee is truly the tragic hero. He fails because of his own weakness.

Longstreet is much more than foreshadowing, although he is that too. He is the alternative course of action. He represents Lee's other choice, the one Lee chooses to ignore.
Lee is a warrior. Yet again, he and his beloved troops have won a battle. His forces inflicted a 50% casualty rate on the Union troops, pushed back two corps, and the "iron brigade." Victory at Fredericksburg in Dec, victory at Chancellorsville in April, and now this day's victory.

Lee is probing the minds of his field commanders, feeling them out for their thoughts on what to do next. Retreat, reposition to the right between Meade and Washington, or attack.

I don't see Lee as ignoring Longstreet. Lee's dander is up, he is a warrior, he loves the Army, he loves leading troops into battle, and he has experienced victory after victory. Longstreet has a plan to defeat the Union forces. So does General Lee. If both plans are sound, why not fight the Union forces here and now?
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Old Sep 8, 2006 | 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Vitito,Sep 8 2006, 07:17 PM
Lee is a warrior. Yet again, he and his beloved troops have won a battle. His forces inflicted a 50% casualty rate on the Union troops, pushed back two corps, and the "iron brigade." Victory at Fredericksburg in Dec, victory at Chancellorsville in April, and now this day's victory.

Lee is probing the minds of his field commanders, feeling them out for their thoughts on what to do next. Retreat, reposition to the right between Meade and Washington, or attack.

I don't see Lee as ignoring Longstreet. Lee's dander is up, he is a warrior, he loves the Army, he loves leading troops into battle, and he has experienced victory after victory. Longstreet has a plan to defeat the Union forces. So does General Lee. If both plans are sound, why not fight the Union forces here and now?
Because it's the wrong ground at the wrong time. But he didn't really know that at the time did he?
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Old Sep 8, 2006 | 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by paS2K,Sep 8 2006, 07:22 AM
How does Gouveneur Warren factor into this, Vito? He was really the one who made scoped out their Achilles Heel. What was his role?
General Warren was Meade's Chief Engineer, sent, I think, to scope out the ground, and make recommendations to HQ as to his assessment as to whether fight at Gettysburg, or pull back troops to Pipe Creek. Apparently, Meade sent several pairs of eyes to check out the status at Cemetery Hill prior to making his final decision, whether to commit the entire army to a fight at Gettysburg, or to withdraw forces and reposition at a solid offensive/defensive position at Pipe Creek.
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Old Sep 8, 2006 | 04:04 PM
  #349  
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Originally Posted by Vitito,Sep 8 2006, 06:17 PM

I don't see Lee as ignoring Longstreet. Lee's dander is up, he is a warrior, he loves the Army, he loves leading troops into battle, and he has experienced victory after victory. Longstreet has a plan to defeat the Union forces. So does General Lee. If both plans are sound, why not fight the Union forces here and now?


I disagree. I think Lee's mind was made up before the battle even started. I think the past victories and being so far north was a bit intoxicating.

Remember, for the most part all of the victories that you mention were won using defensive tactics. This will be a far different battle for the Confederate troops. I would have thought that a clear thinking Lee would have recognized that.
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Old Sep 8, 2006 | 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by raymo19,Sep 8 2006, 06:30 PM
Because it's the wrong ground at the wrong time. But he didn't really know that at the time did he?
He should have.
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