S2000 STR prep resource
Joined: Aug 2002
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From: Honda HQ
Originally Posted by sirbunz' timestamp='1309288149' post='20728045
[quote name='patinum' timestamp='1309278153' post='20727312']
Under STR rules, can a non-delete CR get as light as an AP1? Don't forget a chunk of that weight difference is spare tire and compared to delete model (and there are only 59 of us). The thing about the CR is it loses weight in sound deadening, soft top, and spare tire but gains some of it back with aero and the brace. When all is said and done, it's not really 80lbs.
FWIW, I weighed my car in at 2900lbs at a NASA event. Delete model, 160lb driver, full tank of gas (filled up right before the session), empty and gutted trunk, removed tonneau, removed passenger seat, 17x9 TR Motorsports C3's with 225 Hoosier R6's, lightweight battery, comptech FSB.
Also, just curious (I'm not actively competing in STR so just glance over the rules). Is sound deadening removable on all cars? Can a CR with a/c and radio remove both? Or can it remove just one? Are my brake ducts now illegal?
Under STR rules, can a non-delete CR get as light as an AP1? Don't forget a chunk of that weight difference is spare tire and compared to delete model (and there are only 59 of us). The thing about the CR is it loses weight in sound deadening, soft top, and spare tire but gains some of it back with aero and the brace. When all is said and done, it's not really 80lbs.
FWIW, I weighed my car in at 2900lbs at a NASA event. Delete model, 160lb driver, full tank of gas (filled up right before the session), empty and gutted trunk, removed tonneau, removed passenger seat, 17x9 TR Motorsports C3's with 225 Hoosier R6's, lightweight battery, comptech FSB.
Also, just curious (I'm not actively competing in STR so just glance over the rules). Is sound deadening removable on all cars? Can a CR with a/c and radio remove both? Or can it remove just one? Are my brake ducts now illegal?
Just curious ... So nobody wants to propose a soft top delete and a/c radio delete for the non CR S2000s but would rather put a weight penalty on the CR. Why make the cars heavier especially when looking at the other cars in the field? Maybe write it up stating if you use the oem hard top and hardware, you can remove the soft top and accessories and add in the bracing. Sure it would be more expensive and far fetched, but if 39lbs makes that much of a difference to someone, they will happily spend it, right?
-Marc
What makes this class so popular compared to all the other classes?
1) The fact that you can actually do what autocross is supposed to let you do. That is, take your new-ish street tuned car with creature comforts like A/C, convertible top, radio, and no race rubber (i.e. no trailers), and race it as is.
2) 1 above makes it so lots of people participate, therefore making people craving strong competition want to jump into the class as well
If you take away 1, 2 will collapse, and STR will be a class just like all the others. I will not be in it anymore. There are plenty of classes that cater to the person who does not want a daily driveable car. They can go to those. STR is really the only one that lets you have a pretty cool, newish car, that you can drive to work every day.
By going your way, you cater to the people who have CR S2000s. You force everyone else to also have race-only cars. Therefore killing the distinctions it has with other classes.
By forcing the CR to leave its top on or add ballast in STR, you make it so a CR is on a level playing field without really affecting them that much other than not letting them be an overdog. And, keep in mind, it's already known that the CR is a car to have in BS and BS's race rubber caters to someone who would want a CR anyway. The CR already has a good place to play.
If you have a choice between an option where 95% of the cars out there have to do nothing and 5% have to do something really minor (leave top on or add ballast), or 5% have to do nothing and 95% have to make huge modifications that make the car significantly less streetable (take off top)....doesn't it seem pretty obvious which one you should go with? All the other cars seem pretty even so far.
Sure, you could make the argument that only the people it's important to would take the top off, but I think I'm pretty representative of a lot of the class and I know if I had to do that to feel I was competitive, I would leave the class.
[/quote]
+1
Very well said. And to add a bit to it, ST USED to have a rule that allowed you to remove your A/C, which they took back because lots of ppl wanted to keep it on their cars (again, trying to keep it streetable). So there's no way that they'd allow cars that came with it standard to remove it.
And Marc, you gotta remember, any rule change you propose affects the WHOLE class. I sure the heck wouldn't want MX5s to be able to get rid of their tops. They're light enuf already. If you force OEM equipped convertibles to run with their tops though, it basically only affects CRs, which was the intent.
And when we talk about rules guys, all the advisory committees like simple rules. If you try to add something with convoluted details, they most likely won't take it seriously. By saying "OEM equipped hardtops must have them installed during competition, it doesn't get much simpler than that.
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As for all this "driver mod" stuff, guys, we race in a sport that counts down to the THOUSANDTH of a second. I have not been doing this for THAT long, but I have both won AND lost by .001 seconds. Take a look at the San Diego Tour this year. I beat out Mark Baer, Thorne's co-driver, by .004 seconds, and he beat out Thorne by .005 seconds. If either of those guys had taken a major sh!t that morning, they both could have beat me. I think I took a major sh!t that morning and was able to beat them. If the weight of taking a sh!t is the difference between 2nd place and 4th place, imagine what 100 pounds of weight will do.
Voice of reason...
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B Stock 9 entries
# Name Year Make Sponsor Hometown
71 Mitchell, Gary 2001 Honda S2000 EPVinylWorks.com Knoxville, TN
79 Kozlak, Paul 2007 Pontiac Solstice GXP Red Haus Racing Litchfield, ME
83 Sorensen, Kenny 2008 Porsche Boxster Prince Frederick, MD
94 Baruth, Mark 2008 Honda S2000 CR Changed Mon Motorsports Winchester, KY
95 Pfannenschmidt, Marc 2008 Honda S2000 CR God's Blessings Louisville, KY
97 Corsaro, David 2010 Mitsubishi Evo X SE HamfistRacing.com/ AutoX4U Chatham, NJ
179 Rothney-Kozlak, Lynne 2007 Pontiac Solstice GXP Red Haus Racing Litchfield, ME
183 Pozner, Alan 2008 Porsche Boxster Sun Motorcars / Gary Schmidt's Garage Lititz, PA
195 Toussaint, Jadrice 2008 Honda S2000 CR Crown Honda Charlotte/ Team CMM Charlotte, NC
# Name Year Make Sponsor Hometown
71 Mitchell, Gary 2001 Honda S2000 EPVinylWorks.com Knoxville, TN
79 Kozlak, Paul 2007 Pontiac Solstice GXP Red Haus Racing Litchfield, ME
83 Sorensen, Kenny 2008 Porsche Boxster Prince Frederick, MD
94 Baruth, Mark 2008 Honda S2000 CR Changed Mon Motorsports Winchester, KY
95 Pfannenschmidt, Marc 2008 Honda S2000 CR God's Blessings Louisville, KY
97 Corsaro, David 2010 Mitsubishi Evo X SE HamfistRacing.com/ AutoX4U Chatham, NJ
179 Rothney-Kozlak, Lynne 2007 Pontiac Solstice GXP Red Haus Racing Litchfield, ME
183 Pozner, Alan 2008 Porsche Boxster Sun Motorcars / Gary Schmidt's Garage Lititz, PA
195 Toussaint, Jadrice 2008 Honda S2000 CR Crown Honda Charlotte/ Team CMM Charlotte, NC
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I see your point, but consider the following. I am making some assumptions here so feel free to tell me they're wrong, but it makes sense to me.
What makes this class so popular compared to all the other classes?
1) The fact that you can actually do what autocross is supposed to let you do. That is, take your new-ish street tuned car with creature comforts like A/C, convertible top, radio, and no race rubber (i.e. no trailers), and race it as is.
2) 1 above makes it so lots of people participate, therefore making people craving strong competition want to jump into the class as well
If you take away 1, 2 will collapse, and STR will be a class just like all the others. I will not be in it anymore. There are plenty of classes that cater to the person who does not want a daily driveable car. They can go to those. STR is really the only one that lets you have a pretty cool, newish car, that you can drive to work every day.
By going your way, you cater to the people who have CR S2000s. You force everyone else to also have race-only cars. Therefore killing the distinctions it has with other classes.
By forcing the CR to leave its top on or add ballast in STR, you make it so a CR is on a level playing field without really affecting them that much other than not letting them be an overdog. And, keep in mind, it's already known that the CR is a car to have in BS and BS's race rubber caters to someone who would want a CR anyway. The CR already has a good place to play.
If you have a choice between an option where 95% of the cars out there have to do nothing and 5% have to do something really minor (leave top on or add ballast), or 5% have to do nothing and 95% have to make huge modifications that make the car significantly less streetable (take off top)....doesn't it seem pretty obvious which one you should go with? All the other cars seem pretty even so far.
Sure, you could make the argument that only the people it's important to would take the top off, but I think I'm pretty representative of a lot of the class and I know if I had to do that to feel I was competitive, I would leave the class.
What makes this class so popular compared to all the other classes?
1) The fact that you can actually do what autocross is supposed to let you do. That is, take your new-ish street tuned car with creature comforts like A/C, convertible top, radio, and no race rubber (i.e. no trailers), and race it as is.
2) 1 above makes it so lots of people participate, therefore making people craving strong competition want to jump into the class as well
If you take away 1, 2 will collapse, and STR will be a class just like all the others. I will not be in it anymore. There are plenty of classes that cater to the person who does not want a daily driveable car. They can go to those. STR is really the only one that lets you have a pretty cool, newish car, that you can drive to work every day.
By going your way, you cater to the people who have CR S2000s. You force everyone else to also have race-only cars. Therefore killing the distinctions it has with other classes.
By forcing the CR to leave its top on or add ballast in STR, you make it so a CR is on a level playing field without really affecting them that much other than not letting them be an overdog. And, keep in mind, it's already known that the CR is a car to have in BS and BS's race rubber caters to someone who would want a CR anyway. The CR already has a good place to play.
If you have a choice between an option where 95% of the cars out there have to do nothing and 5% have to do something really minor (leave top on or add ballast), or 5% have to do nothing and 95% have to make huge modifications that make the car significantly less streetable (take off top)....doesn't it seem pretty obvious which one you should go with? All the other cars seem pretty even so far.
Sure, you could make the argument that only the people it's important to would take the top off, but I think I'm pretty representative of a lot of the class and I know if I had to do that to feel I was competitive, I would leave the class.
1. That is more on a local level where a good driver in a Civic will beat a new participant in a whatever. The National level is full of cars prepped to the absolute max and certainly not daily drivers.
2. This may seem a bit hard, but truth IMO. Most the current drivers in STR were National attendees anyways. Overall numbers are still down compared to last year. This is an exiting new class. I predict numbers will fall off eventually as this class settles in. I feel if you take away 1, the regulars who attend National events in 2 will end up in another class. Most the attendees will not win National Championships anyways and many of them will blame it on whatever they can because it certainly isn't their driving that's the problem...
3. Let me make this very clear ... My agenda IS NOT to make the CR the top dog in the class. That would be your mistake to assume such a foolish idea. I have proven other cars are just as fast by driving them along with my CR. To argue differently is not fact, but theory. My way is this ... that all S2000s can have whatever part the other has. There would be no aftermarket diffs, no aftermarket aero, no ecu, no etc ... just suspension and tires. This would be cheapest and still about the same speed.
4. If you have to have the absolute best car for the class to determine whether you participate, Solo probably isn't the sport for you. The are many cars in each class. Some courses will favor one car, another setup, a different driver, etc. There will always be valid excuses. That is no fun to your competitors and an insult to their victory. I could throw out a excuse when I lose (and I regrettably have in the past) but it is poor sportsmanship. I want my competitors to know they won fair and square, that I gave it my best. I want the same if I win.
5. Like someone said before, if the ac, radio, and hard top this bother you so much, buy the CR already. I would be surprised if its a 1 tenth or more difference.
6. What if our STR competitors in other other makes want to penalize us for power. Its the same type of argument. There is no true balance in any class among cars.
7. No offense, but I don't buy that .001 stuff. I guarantee there was more time left out there with driver error than with a setup difference. There always will be. No driver gets 100% out of a car. There also isn't anything like a 100# difference here.
8. Again, so why not propose the non-CRs to get the same options? Starting to sound like a conspiracy against CRs to me
Jon this isn't aimed directly at you, but to anyone who blames thier car for "their" loss and claim a win was due to the car. Jadrice and I have had the CRs for many years and since they were new. I special ordered mine because I always liked white S2000s and it was unique. At the time, it was the wrong car for the class. The GXP and C4 were heavily favored.
-Marc
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Long time autocrosser here, but very new to the S2000. I am preparing my 2003 AP1 as far as BS for now but I am going to start in STR and may stick with that and mod even further. I have been watching this thread lately with much interest, but could someone explain or link me to info on this ECU rule change that is being talked about. What is the issue and how would any changes have an effect?
hahaha
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From: McKinney, TX
If the AP1 turns out to be the S2000 to have, taller 1st. and 2nd. gears, and lighter flywheel will people be able to change the gears and the flywheel in the AP2 so they will have a fair chance?
edit,
New rule, CR's run with hard top, but get light weight flywheel and no clutch delay valve.
The point I am trying to make is all of the cars have different strong points, Miata NC, and NB, AP1 or AP2 CR. Getting a special rule for or against one model will be very hard and I don't think SCCA wants to open that box. If they do then everybody is going to want something to level the playing field. (give the car they own the upper hand)
I run B stock in a CR with no plans of going STR at this point, just wanted to play devils advocate.
edit,
New rule, CR's run with hard top, but get light weight flywheel and no clutch delay valve.
The point I am trying to make is all of the cars have different strong points, Miata NC, and NB, AP1 or AP2 CR. Getting a special rule for or against one model will be very hard and I don't think SCCA wants to open that box. If they do then everybody is going to want something to level the playing field. (give the car they own the upper hand)
I run B stock in a CR with no plans of going STR at this point, just wanted to play devils advocate.
Joined: Jun 2010
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From: Near Philadelphia
Again you have some good points, but I think you misunderstand what I'm trying to say a little bit so I should clarify.
Honestly I think you're wrong. That's the magic of STR to me. I am daily driving my car right now and I completely foresee myself being able to daily drive the car in it's fully prepared nationally competitive state. By taking away my top that pushes it over the edge.
OK, you're probably right, but that is no reason to send them out of the class purposefully. Also, you're talking about nationals specifically...I completely disagree at the local level and at the prosolo/national tour level.
I never said you were saying that. I understand you want to make the cars equal in a different way. My point is...why not make the smaller subset of people who did not buy a car consistent with the philosophy of the class do something minor, as opposed to having to make the larger group of people do something major?
OK, understood, and I don't feel I have to have the best car for the class in order to participate. I just feel I have to have a car that can get it done. I mean seriously, until this year I was driving a 99 miata in CS so....yeah. Also, to have a car this expensive it has to double as a daily driver so it has to have a top. Honestly in the current situation I'm fine with it, because as I mentioned maybe the CR gets another tenth of a second advantage or something in that ballpark if we're identically prepped (again, just making that number up) but no driver is perfect so a good driver could make up that difference. However I do think that if it's easy to make it even...why not do it?
Pretty sure these are all the same point. Here are the reasons:
1) The entire philosophy of the class is what I said - to take a not expensive street tuner style daily driven car and race it. Your way does not match that philosophy. The alternative does match that philosophy. Honestly what would make sense is to say the CR doesn't match the intent of the class and therefore isn't eligible...but I feel that's a little extreme.
2) The CR is significantly more expensive
3) The CR is much rarer - everyone who has a S2000 cannot upgrade to a CR
4) Most people do not have CRs - the less people that have to change the better.
5) To your #6 point - The point is not that one car is better than another. It's that a car that is not consistent with the class philosophy seems like it might be better than all the others. That's the problem. If it were just a matter of oh, whoops, I have the wrong car I have to buy a different one that'd be fine. If it were...for example, the AP1 S2000 that was the car to have(or AP2, or MX-5, or VW beetle convertible, or whatever...ok maybe not that last one), that'd be fine because people could be consistent with the philosophy of inexpensive daily driven cars and still have a great car for the class. Of course the ideal would be a large group of cars that can get it done.
I completely agree with this, and I do think some people in this thread are overestimating how important this kind of change is.
Completely agree again, that's why I'd love to see a class where those differences are minimized and people can't make those excuses. I also hate how many people blame external factors that they could have made up for with driving.
Marc, I hope you realize I'm just discussing this because I'd like to see if people can reach a common ground or not - I hope you don't take it as arguing. I've said this a few times but I don't feel super strongly about this (although I do feel strongly about keeping my top). I just want to see if we can get people to agree on it. To me it seems that ballasting STR CR's slightly would be good for pretty much everyone (even for CR owners who won't have to deal with all the "oh well you just won because of your CR"). If not, I'm fine with the current state of things - not ideal but still fine. I feel that the CR is within reach of the AP2 so I'm ok with beating them with driver skill (I just need that pesky driver skill first
)
2. This may seem a bit hard, but truth IMO. Most the current drivers in STR were National attendees anyways. Overall numbers are still down compared to last year. This is an exiting new class. I predict numbers will fall off eventually as this class settles in. I feel if you take away 1, the regulars who attend National events in 2 will end up in another class. Most the attendees will not win National Championships anyways and many of them will blame it on whatever they can because it certainly isn't their driving that's the problem...
3. Let me make this very clear ... My agenda IS NOT to make the CR the top dog in the class. That would be your mistake to assume such a foolish idea. I have proven other cars are just as fast by driving them along with my CR. To argue differently is not fact, but theory. My way is this ... that all S2000s can have whatever part the other has. There would be no aftermarket diffs, no aftermarket aero, no ecu, no etc ... just suspension and tires. This would be cheapest and still about the same speed.
4. If you have to have the absolute best car for the class to determine whether you participate, Solo probably isn't the sport for you. The are many cars in each class. Some courses will favor one car, another setup, a different driver, etc. There will always be valid excuses. That is no fun to your competitors and an insult to their victory. I could throw out a excuse when I lose (and I regrettably have in the past) but it is poor sportsmanship. I want my competitors to know they won fair and square, that I gave it my best. I want the same if I win.
5. Like someone said before, if the ac, radio, and hard top this bother you so much, buy the CR already. I would be surprised if its a 1 tenth or more difference.
6. What if our STR competitors in other other makes want to penalize us for power. Its the same type of argument. There is no true balance in any class among cars.
8. Again, so why not propose the non-CRs to get the same options? Starting to sound like a conspiracy against CRs to me
6. What if our STR competitors in other other makes want to penalize us for power. Its the same type of argument. There is no true balance in any class among cars.
8. Again, so why not propose the non-CRs to get the same options? Starting to sound like a conspiracy against CRs to me
1) The entire philosophy of the class is what I said - to take a not expensive street tuner style daily driven car and race it. Your way does not match that philosophy. The alternative does match that philosophy. Honestly what would make sense is to say the CR doesn't match the intent of the class and therefore isn't eligible...but I feel that's a little extreme.
2) The CR is significantly more expensive
3) The CR is much rarer - everyone who has a S2000 cannot upgrade to a CR
4) Most people do not have CRs - the less people that have to change the better.
5) To your #6 point - The point is not that one car is better than another. It's that a car that is not consistent with the class philosophy seems like it might be better than all the others. That's the problem. If it were just a matter of oh, whoops, I have the wrong car I have to buy a different one that'd be fine. If it were...for example, the AP1 S2000 that was the car to have(or AP2, or MX-5, or VW beetle convertible, or whatever...ok maybe not that last one), that'd be fine because people could be consistent with the philosophy of inexpensive daily driven cars and still have a great car for the class. Of course the ideal would be a large group of cars that can get it done.
7. No offense, but I don't buy that .001 stuff. I guarantee there was more time left out there with driver error than with a setup difference. There always will be. No driver gets 100% out of a car. There also isn't anything like a 100# difference here.
Jon this isn't aimed directly at you, but to anyone who blames thier car for "their" loss and claim a win was due to the car. Jadrice and I have had the CRs for many years and since they were new. I special ordered mine because I always liked white S2000s and it was unique. At the time, it was the wrong car for the class. The GXP and C4 were heavily favored.
Marc, I hope you realize I'm just discussing this because I'd like to see if people can reach a common ground or not - I hope you don't take it as arguing. I've said this a few times but I don't feel super strongly about this (although I do feel strongly about keeping my top). I just want to see if we can get people to agree on it. To me it seems that ballasting STR CR's slightly would be good for pretty much everyone (even for CR owners who won't have to deal with all the "oh well you just won because of your CR"). If not, I'm fine with the current state of things - not ideal but still fine. I feel that the CR is within reach of the AP2 so I'm ok with beating them with driver skill (I just need that pesky driver skill first
)
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,881
Likes: 6
From: Near Philadelphia
edit,
New rule, CR's run with hard top, but get light weight flywheel and no clutch delay valve.
The point I am trying to make is all of the cars have different strong points, Miata NC, and NB, AP1 or AP2 CR. Getting a special rule for or against one model will be very hard and I don't think SCCA wants to open that box. If they do then everybody is going to want something to level the playing field. (give the car they own the upper hand)
I run B stock in a CR with no plans of going STR at this point, just wanted to play devils advocate.
New rule, CR's run with hard top, but get light weight flywheel and no clutch delay valve.
The point I am trying to make is all of the cars have different strong points, Miata NC, and NB, AP1 or AP2 CR. Getting a special rule for or against one model will be very hard and I don't think SCCA wants to open that box. If they do then everybody is going to want something to level the playing field. (give the car they own the upper hand)
I run B stock in a CR with no plans of going STR at this point, just wanted to play devils advocate.
I think the main point is that if there really is a car to have, it shouldn't be the CR since these are supposed to be street cars. And that looks like the most likely candidate. If that's the case, the CR should be put on a level playing field with the other cars so you don't need a CR to compete.
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,881
Likes: 6
From: Near Philadelphia
Long time autocrosser here, but very new to the S2000. I am preparing my 2003 AP1 as far as BS for now but I am going to start in STR and may stick with that and mod even further. I have been watching this thread lately with much interest, but could someone explain or link me to info on this ECU rule change that is being talked about. What is the issue and how would any changes have an effect?
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