s2000 junky... by the time i do both and test each sufficiently to see which is better and spent the time and money on that, I could have saved enough and waited just a little longer and upgraded my wheels and made it all moot. and wider is not always better in autox with the uber tight courses.

--------------------------

Dont get me wrong, eventually I will have both the suspension and the wheels, im trying to decide ifI want to use a huge front bar as a temporary bandaid for not having suspension, or a slightly smaller tire upfront and suspension tuning as a bandaid for not having the wheels... in a couple years i will have both. Both a big front bar, or proper spring rates and shock tuning can fix wheel lift. I find the tips from Rodney and James very interesting, I would like to hear what Glagola has to say about his reasoning for suggesting suspension and Id like to hear TheNick chime in before I make any final decision, Just wanna hear the reasoning on both sides.

 

^^I agree.

<rambling>
With me in stock class, the FSB was to keep the @$$ on the ground in turns, plus this allow me to put fatter tires up front without making it too oversteery.

Man, my AP1 and my driving style really makes the rear wheel lift problem pretty prominent. Eventually, I got the biggest bar I could afford put on, but I went ahead compensated my alignment to help keep it from being too understeery that the added front bar could cause. I then got DA's and that finally got my rear wheel lift ~95% taken care of.

To me, STR allowances changes things completely. Now I have this crazy big front bar that I really don't have to have as I can play around with spring rates. Unfortunately, I'm too much of a setup idiot to know where to start with those rates and what setting on my adjustable FSB to go with. I might start with the CR rates and then migrate to what most others seem to eventually land on. Me=lemming
</rambling>

-Dave

 

Um, wut?

Have you ever watched a little (narrow) Miata and a massive Dodge Viper try to get through the same super tight spot or a cramped slalom on an autocross course? You might change your mind about wider always being better....

 

You are still going to need a big"ish" front bar Dave.

The MR is so low on these cars that in order to truly compensate for a smaller front bar with spring rates - you'll need something near 1100-1200lb springs if not higher.


I think a good baseline is a Saner bar, 850F/700R. Do what you wish with the rear bar.

 

i ran a Ford GT at an event a few weeks ago, and got beat by a miata because he was, well, just smaller.

 

The car on R-comps is different than the car on street tires. I've have absolutely zero inside wheel lift and I have a stock front and rear sway bar with 850 springs in the front and 650 in the rear. If anything, the car is pushy. I plan to add some positive camber in the front and then if that doesn't help with the entry push, I'll drop the front spring rate.

I hate push.

I auto-xed the car with stock springs/shocks but with 255s on all corners and the car had a good balance. I was about 1.5 seconds slower than my crx driven by a good driver. I then dropped the car on Motons with the spring rates listed above with a first try alignment. I shaved roughly 1.5 seconds of my times with much more to be found if I start to learn how to drive the car compared to the CRX.

So, with this anecdotal evidence considered, I'd say lowering the car and getting it stiffer is worth a lot of time. I noticed while on the stock suspension that the car took FOREVER to transition. The body roll was exaggerated and slow which pretty much made it impossible to attack slaloms and off sets. I remember the same in AS before I installed the Motons and a big FSB.

 

I would try a small wheel spacer up front to fine tune the push, a 10mm track increase might do wonders for your turn-in. It's cheaper and easier than changing springs

 

Interesting idea. The only issue is that I'd have to get extended studs and boom, there goes any cost savings. I'm pretty sure either the camber or the spring will work wonders. I'm used to trying different spring rates. I tried six different springs on the front of my CRX. I'm picking up some used springs locally for 70 bucks. It's hard to beat that.

 

Yup. Your car has no understeer becuase you're on a totally stock suspension with about the correct OEM stagger (235/255), so it should be decently balanced. Thing is, stock AP1 and AP2 suspension are markedly different. In terms of autox. the heirarchy of suspensions go CR>AP1>AP2, with the worst AP2s being the 06-07 becuase of the push.

Thing is, the AP1 OEM suspension isn't as bad as some ppl here think. You can make it better by adding bigger tires to the front, and adding the big FSB to make it transition better, which is the strength of the S2000. The square setup without a big FSB would make an AP1 loose, but by using a big FSB to counter the oversteer, you've added more outside "spring rate" with the big FSB, and the car will transition like a champ. But remember, you have to remember the OEM AP1 and AP2 suspensions make them different animals, and you have to listen to advice ppl give you with that awareness.

Glagola's post that on 255s on his stock 06 susp hits the issue dead on. That car is really pushy, but the square setup balances it out. Unfortunately, that AP2 is sprung too soft, and transitions like crap compared to an AP1, esp one with a square setup and a big FSB. In the case of an AP2, I might want to ditch the springs and shocks sooner than I would on an AP1.

Remember, I'm not saying that the AP1 suspension is good enuf to run STR competitively. A good set of springs and shocks will definitely be quicker than any OEM suspension. But if you're gonna do it right and be on the cheap, you're gonna want Koni yellows, converted to DA, and with springs, perches,etc, that will run you at LEAST $1500, if not closer to $2000. And IMO, I dunno if the Konis have enuf range to run with the Motons/Penskes. But I doubt you had those shocks in mind in the first place. You can either do that or sell your current wheels/tires and upgrade for what, $400-$500?

Like I said, I'm in the same boat you are. I own an AP1, but I'm broke. I've run this car on street tires for 3 years (225s all around) with a big FSB, so I'm talking from experience. My priority is to get the grip to a similar level as everyone else first, and then tune the grip with a good suspension. You'd be surprised what an AP1 with a big FSB and a square setup can do. IMO, better bang for the buck to have the correct wheels/tires for an AP1 then getting shocks/springs.

James Yom

 

Interesting... I actually have 225/255 setup and was looking to go to 235/255 setup... I To go to 17x8.5 wheels all around without tires is about 1200 (OZ) to go to 17x9 is uber expensive (currently only volks available) then a big bar (which there are 2 reputable people disagree on whether you need it or not with the suspension) would be a frew hundred more... vs. a custom valved koni setup with custom spring rates i got priced out at 1700. I will need new tires eventually anyway so no point in including that in the cost. So cost is pretty equivalent. Granted I could sell my wheels which would make some of that back. So That is a good point. Well I got a month or two until the money I was gonna use comes in. Both sides seem to have good arguments.... I love having all this data to work from.

So Its either a bar and some 17x8.5 OZ's with 255 star specs all around... or my current wheels (upgrading to 235/255 still with star spec's like I have now) with a custom koni coilover setup...

Thank you all for your help, I will be looking at everyone's advice when making my decisions.