the Official "NA Tuning" thread
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From: knoxville, TN
Originally Posted by versionJDM,Nov 22 2005, 08:03 PM
thanks.....anyone with their own tune.....i'll buy ya a beer if you tell me!
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From: knoxville, TN
Originally Posted by suterusu,Nov 22 2005, 09:00 PM
And finally, the on point we agree on. 4.57 and 4.44 gears are a pretty good choice for a daily driven car, especially given the general crowd usually not used to 5K@80mph. If I didn't do highway crusing, and gas was getting cheaper, I'd probably do the 4.77s. I've played around with FD and gearing before. I had a JDM '98 Spec R (4.785FD) trans in my ITR (from the stock 4.44). The 1st through 3rd gear ratios were the same, and that small numerical change in FD was a noticeable enough change. In my opinion MOST users on here would be fine with 4.44 gears for daily driving, 4.3 if they do a lot of highway. They really give the S2000 a lot of pep.
Anyway, it looks like KAY'S wasn't far off...
-Andrew
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 838
Likes: 5
From: MI
numerically under 12:1 A/F ratio is rich(er). 14.7 is considered the "best" A/F ratio (compromise between economy and power) and is called stoichiometry. Any numerically higher number is lean. Numerically lower is rich.
But, I do agree that you shouldn't use someone elses tune. The only time *I* can see it be useful for the day you go to the dyno. IF the mods are the same, you can use someone else's dyno as a baseline to save some time. But, no two engines are alike, especially with the S2000 since they are low production hand-built cars. Also, no two engines are in the same state of tune. Spark plug wear, gas quality/octane, timing chain wear (stretch), carbon buildups, PCV flow, etc. all affect the engine's abilty to produce power. Granted, this is getting very nit-picky, you can see what I'm trying to get at.
There is a "better" way to do it (tune your car to your mods). Yes, you can just run someone elses maps, but when we're arguing over $1500 exhaust systems and gaining 1-2hp, $300-$500 for a retune doesn't seem like much. Especially when you can (and often will) see (hp and fuel economy) and feel (revving smoother, better midrange) better gains from that $300-$500. Because there are other ways (sharing VAFC settings or AEM maps) of doing it that seem easy, doesn't mean it's a good idea. The only time I ever considered a pre-tuned ECU was when I was thinking of going with an all Amuse setup for sponsorship. That was only because I was planning on running Trust Iridium plugs, Mugen intake, JDM head gasket, Amuse R1 header, Amuse R1000 exhaust, higher octane gas (etc.)...
EDIT: Tenblade, I totally see where you're coming from on the gears thing.
'98 Spec R
1st 3.230
2nd 2.105
3rd 1.458
4th 1.034
5th 0.787
FD 4.785
S2000 (AP1)
1st 3.133
2nd 2.045
3rd 1.481
4th 1.161
5th 0.971
6th 0.811
I'm too lazy to do all the calculations, but you can see that 1st-3rd are very close to the same. The only reason I say 1-3 is because it's easy to compare between all three trans' and because most owners really only punch it through 3rd.
Double EDIT: too much work at once...continuing my last edit: I was referencing the gear ratio choice more on daily driving and how a lot of owners would probably like their car. I don't see any short term (i.e. the general life of the car in one owner's hand) negative mechanical affects from going with a 4.77. I was thinking more of the average owners wear on their wallet (gas) and minds (seeing the tach at 5K on the highway).
But, I do agree that you shouldn't use someone elses tune. The only time *I* can see it be useful for the day you go to the dyno. IF the mods are the same, you can use someone else's dyno as a baseline to save some time. But, no two engines are alike, especially with the S2000 since they are low production hand-built cars. Also, no two engines are in the same state of tune. Spark plug wear, gas quality/octane, timing chain wear (stretch), carbon buildups, PCV flow, etc. all affect the engine's abilty to produce power. Granted, this is getting very nit-picky, you can see what I'm trying to get at.
There is a "better" way to do it (tune your car to your mods). Yes, you can just run someone elses maps, but when we're arguing over $1500 exhaust systems and gaining 1-2hp, $300-$500 for a retune doesn't seem like much. Especially when you can (and often will) see (hp and fuel economy) and feel (revving smoother, better midrange) better gains from that $300-$500. Because there are other ways (sharing VAFC settings or AEM maps) of doing it that seem easy, doesn't mean it's a good idea. The only time I ever considered a pre-tuned ECU was when I was thinking of going with an all Amuse setup for sponsorship. That was only because I was planning on running Trust Iridium plugs, Mugen intake, JDM head gasket, Amuse R1 header, Amuse R1000 exhaust, higher octane gas (etc.)...
EDIT: Tenblade, I totally see where you're coming from on the gears thing.
'98 Spec R
1st 3.230
2nd 2.105
3rd 1.458
4th 1.034
5th 0.787
FD 4.785
S2000 (AP1)
1st 3.133
2nd 2.045
3rd 1.481
4th 1.161
5th 0.971
6th 0.811
I'm too lazy to do all the calculations, but you can see that 1st-3rd are very close to the same. The only reason I say 1-3 is because it's easy to compare between all three trans' and because most owners really only punch it through 3rd.
Double EDIT: too much work at once...continuing my last edit: I was referencing the gear ratio choice more on daily driving and how a lot of owners would probably like their car. I don't see any short term (i.e. the general life of the car in one owner's hand) negative mechanical affects from going with a 4.77. I was thinking more of the average owners wear on their wallet (gas) and minds (seeing the tach at 5K on the highway).
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 9,280
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From: knoxville, TN
Originally Posted by suterusu,Nov 22 2005, 09:35 PM
numerically under 12:1 A/F ratio is rich(er). 14.7 is considered the "best" A/F ratio (compromise between economy and power) and is called stoichiometry. Any numerically higher number is lean. Numerically lower is rich.
oops, I had a brain-fart.
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 838
Likes: 5
From: MI
ehhh, just going with worst case senario. I dunno, $120/hr. with two maps (part throttle/WOT) capable of like 12 point fuel correction? It depends on how precise you wanna get and how much a shop will charge. I've seen shops charge very little for a complete and precise tune, and I've seen friends/people get ripped off too...
Thread Starter
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From: formerly versionJDM
i just looked at my dyno plot....my 213rwhp was at 12.1 AFR.......? please explain to me. shit, should i even mess with that. if the car is doing that stock.........???????????
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,361
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From: las vegas
Originally Posted by suterusu,Nov 22 2005, 06:00 PM
Wow, I don't like you based of your first paragraph. Granted he called you out. Who pooped in your Cocoa Puffs this morning? 
I'm not going to get into it any deeper.
As far as that intake stuff. Well, I would like to know where you got "3 hard drive cycles" and "run it for a few hours hard" from? Neither of those will be enough to do anything. More on that later.
As far as dynoing back to back...on any car (the S2000 especially) you can't expect to see maximum gains on a back to back, that is correct. To see maximum gains, you should have the car tuned for that specific mod. Hell, tuning on a stock engine nets power because 1) not F20C1/F22C1 is the same, and 2) It has emissions and other things to worry about that affect power output.
I would like to know how the S2000 "optimizes" the timing and fuel for the newly gained air. Last I checked, the ECU only modifies timing based on the occurence of knock. If your engine knocks when you put an intake on, you've got bigger issues and shouldn't be dynoing it. Now, back to that drive cycle thing. The ECU is not going to modify the long-term fuel trim settings in "3 hard drive cycles" or "run it for a few hours hard;" at least not in the way you're trying to convey. The ECU modifies fuel trim (ONLY), both longterm and short term, based usually solely on input from the primary O2 sensor (secondary O2 is ONLY for a cat efficiency check, for those who think otherwise). Those modifications are only if it's seen running out of stock (i.e. emissions friendly) parameters, and is EXTREMELY hindered by the fact that the stock O2 is a narrow band sensor.
And finally, the on point we agree on. 4.57 and 4.44 gears are a pretty good choice for a daily driven car, especially given the general crowd usually not used to 5K@80mph. If I didn't do highway crusing, and gas was getting cheaper, I'd probably do the 4.77s. I've played around with FD and gearing before. I had a JDM '98 Spec R (4.785FD) trans in my ITR (from the stock 4.44). The 1st through 3rd gear ratios were the same, and that small numerical change in FD was a noticeable enough change. In my opinion MOST users on here would be fine with 4.44 gears for daily driving, 4.3 if they do a lot of highway. They really give the S2000 a lot of pep.
Anyway, it looks like KAY'S wasn't far off...
-Andrew
I'm not going to get into it any deeper.As far as that intake stuff. Well, I would like to know where you got "3 hard drive cycles" and "run it for a few hours hard" from? Neither of those will be enough to do anything. More on that later.
As far as dynoing back to back...on any car (the S2000 especially) you can't expect to see maximum gains on a back to back, that is correct. To see maximum gains, you should have the car tuned for that specific mod. Hell, tuning on a stock engine nets power because 1) not F20C1/F22C1 is the same, and 2) It has emissions and other things to worry about that affect power output.
I would like to know how the S2000 "optimizes" the timing and fuel for the newly gained air. Last I checked, the ECU only modifies timing based on the occurence of knock. If your engine knocks when you put an intake on, you've got bigger issues and shouldn't be dynoing it. Now, back to that drive cycle thing. The ECU is not going to modify the long-term fuel trim settings in "3 hard drive cycles" or "run it for a few hours hard;" at least not in the way you're trying to convey. The ECU modifies fuel trim (ONLY), both longterm and short term, based usually solely on input from the primary O2 sensor (secondary O2 is ONLY for a cat efficiency check, for those who think otherwise). Those modifications are only if it's seen running out of stock (i.e. emissions friendly) parameters, and is EXTREMELY hindered by the fact that the stock O2 is a narrow band sensor.
And finally, the on point we agree on. 4.57 and 4.44 gears are a pretty good choice for a daily driven car, especially given the general crowd usually not used to 5K@80mph. If I didn't do highway crusing, and gas was getting cheaper, I'd probably do the 4.77s. I've played around with FD and gearing before. I had a JDM '98 Spec R (4.785FD) trans in my ITR (from the stock 4.44). The 1st through 3rd gear ratios were the same, and that small numerical change in FD was a noticeable enough change. In my opinion MOST users on here would be fine with 4.44 gears for daily driving, 4.3 if they do a lot of highway. They really give the S2000 a lot of pep.
Anyway, it looks like KAY'S wasn't far off...
-Andrew
been away for a while.
dude, ......
i know all this. i do this all day, everyday, for a living. i wouldnt give advice if i hadnt seen it myself, day in and say out. computers learn, and they have memory, they get stuck in a one track mind. thats why its good to reset them now and again. ever worked on an s2k, that an old lady drives, or older gent?. they say, it runs ok, but it never has any power. because its used to them never hitting VTEC, and always driving under half throttle. it is lazy fuel and spark curve wise. take it out for a drive, and smash on it, and look in the rearview. smoke and soot pouring out. they get back in, and its crisp as new, they freak out, and pull back on the service drive, and go WTF!!. my car runs so nice now.
yes long term fuel trims are used to being in one place. so you bolt on parts, and it takes a few for the car to edge the trims, and go, yeah, its safe...lil more, still safe, lil more...wow!!! we have new air.
listen, if you have an s2k, do this for me. everyone.
check your oil, if its overfull, drain out some, im not joking. now get in your car, and drive up the street, find a good back road. stand on it HARD, and run from 1st, through 4th, remember how it feels. slow down, do it again, HARD. remember how it feels. keep doing this. about 5-6 times. now drive up the road a ways, and let the car get some fresh air.... maybe 2 mins drive time. now put it back in first and STAND ON IT, wind out 4 gears, youll go WTF!!!!! car hauls ass. noticeable difference. the trims have learned, you arent messing around. and everything is warmed up now. fluids have thinned out, etc.
i drive my car very very hard. before we go hunting, we go burn the cars in. get em lit up. and people always say, man i notice your car runs extra hard. yeah, cause i know what the car wants. if i drive for 3 days, to work and back, no VTEC, then go get on it, im dissapointed, BAD. rip it for 15 mins or so, and its back to its old self. try it, and pay attention. youll love it, and win more races that way.
take it easy.
dave