the Official "NA Tuning" thread
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 838
Likes: 5
From: MI
I think it's pretty obvious from the way you talk vs. the way I talk that you really only think you know everything, vegas.
Anyway, I have HEARD that the S2000 likes richer AFRs. I can see that being possible. From an educated guess, the smaller head (Honda advertised the head being close to the size of a 16v SOHC head, because they used the gear drive to move the cams closer together for a better valve angle). Now, since the head is smaller, there is less physical volume for heat to escape from the combusion process and absorbed into the coolant. I'm going to research this more, and the spark plug thing...
versionJDM: If you want to keep things simple, or, *gasp* be different and do things your own way...sure you can pick up a Spoon/Mugen/J's ECU and use a VAFC with it. Look at it this way. AEM: adjust timing and fuel to get the car running well. JDM ECUs: fixed timing and fuel. The JDM ECU's timing curves can't be THAT far off from what you would tune into an AEM. So, you just grab a VAFC, change the AFRs to match your mods, and that works well enough. No worrying about finding an AEM EMS tuner that knows what he/she is doing, no worrying about getting the coolant gauge working with hacks or whatever, no standalone associated "problems." Don't get me wrong, the EMS is an AWESOME engine managment, but there are other ways to acomplish things and sometimes a full standalone just isn't needed.
Highrpmek: You're right, it's not going to generate a better fuel/timing map. Timing is ONLY altered by the knock sensor sensing knock and/or the crank sensor sensing misfire. Both of those shouldn't be happening if you are doing minor bolt-on's. A thicker HG, bad gas, extremely high temps will cause timing to be pulled out from the base map. Timing is an AS NEEDED change, there is no long term memory for timing maps. As far as fuel trim, the ECU is only going to be modifying the fuel trims for (most importantly) emissions and (a little important) driving style. These changes are very very small. However, vegas is way off with his information.
Vegas: Do you know what block learn is? When you hook up a scanner and see the long term fuel trim, what does -13 mean? Do you REALLY know how engine managment works? If you can show me you know what you're talking about, then I'll lay off, but there is just way too much bad information coming from you.
Anyway, I have HEARD that the S2000 likes richer AFRs. I can see that being possible. From an educated guess, the smaller head (Honda advertised the head being close to the size of a 16v SOHC head, because they used the gear drive to move the cams closer together for a better valve angle). Now, since the head is smaller, there is less physical volume for heat to escape from the combusion process and absorbed into the coolant. I'm going to research this more, and the spark plug thing...
versionJDM: If you want to keep things simple, or, *gasp* be different and do things your own way...sure you can pick up a Spoon/Mugen/J's ECU and use a VAFC with it. Look at it this way. AEM: adjust timing and fuel to get the car running well. JDM ECUs: fixed timing and fuel. The JDM ECU's timing curves can't be THAT far off from what you would tune into an AEM. So, you just grab a VAFC, change the AFRs to match your mods, and that works well enough. No worrying about finding an AEM EMS tuner that knows what he/she is doing, no worrying about getting the coolant gauge working with hacks or whatever, no standalone associated "problems." Don't get me wrong, the EMS is an AWESOME engine managment, but there are other ways to acomplish things and sometimes a full standalone just isn't needed.
Highrpmek: You're right, it's not going to generate a better fuel/timing map. Timing is ONLY altered by the knock sensor sensing knock and/or the crank sensor sensing misfire. Both of those shouldn't be happening if you are doing minor bolt-on's. A thicker HG, bad gas, extremely high temps will cause timing to be pulled out from the base map. Timing is an AS NEEDED change, there is no long term memory for timing maps. As far as fuel trim, the ECU is only going to be modifying the fuel trims for (most importantly) emissions and (a little important) driving style. These changes are very very small. However, vegas is way off with his information.
Vegas: Do you know what block learn is? When you hook up a scanner and see the long term fuel trim, what does -13 mean? Do you REALLY know how engine managment works? If you can show me you know what you're talking about, then I'll lay off, but there is just way too much bad information coming from you.
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,403
Likes: 6
From: DFW, TX
Originally Posted by S2oooNvegas,Nov 24 2005, 02:17 PM
since your so knowledgeable, and fast. bring it on down smart guy.
and suterusu...there most definitly is a timing map in the ECU, I think you know this however with how you explained everything. The timing map in the ECU is pretty much a fixed timing map, really only dependent on throtle postion/load for the most part. the only way it changes is due to knock...and I think thats what you were trying to say. So there is a memory for timing maps, just not something that changes over time unlike fuel which can change. But the fuel changes are more related to say moving from sea level to 5000ft...not as much fuel is needed so the ECU stops using as much fuel. They really aren't related to how often you race the car out, I also think you understand this, someone else doesn't though.
BTW, is there any way a mod could block nVegas from posting in this thread?
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 11,993
Likes: 1
From: formerly versionJDM
vfac it is...sutersus thank you for your straight forward explaination. that what was i need to hear. my next session of mods now include(and i am doing it!) megan racing test pipe, vfac. should get me closer to 220rwhp, shoot if i tune right, it might take me there.
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,403
Likes: 6
From: DFW, TX
just a test pipe will give you great gains in the top end...you'll probably be surprised...and then a VAFC tune will net a few more on top of that. I'm sure that if you are at 213 now then you'll probably be above 220whp. But then I'd start to question the dyno...you still could be at 220whp but being at 213 already does sound a little high for only intake and exhaust...ask the guy if his dyno normally reads a few hp higher
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,361
Likes: 0
From: las vegas
Originally Posted by suterusu,Nov 24 2005, 05:03 PM
I think it's pretty obvious from the way you talk vs. the way I talk that you really only think you know everything, vegas.
Anyway, I have HEARD that the S2000 likes richer AFRs. I can see that being possible. From an educated guess, the smaller head (Honda advertised the head being close to the size of a 16v SOHC head, because they used the gear drive to move the cams closer together for a better valve angle). Now, since the head is smaller, there is less physical volume for heat to escape from the combusion process and absorbed into the coolant. I'm going to research this more, and the spark plug thing...
versionJDM: If you want to keep things simple, or, *gasp* be different and do things your own way...sure you can pick up a Spoon/Mugen/J's ECU and use a VAFC with it. Look at it this way. AEM: adjust timing and fuel to get the car running well. JDM ECUs: fixed timing and fuel. The JDM ECU's timing curves can't be THAT far off from what you would tune into an AEM. So, you just grab a VAFC, change the AFRs to match your mods, and that works well enough. No worrying about finding an AEM EMS tuner that knows what he/she is doing, no worrying about getting the coolant gauge working with hacks or whatever, no standalone associated "problems." Don't get me wrong, the EMS is an AWESOME engine managment, but there are other ways to acomplish things and sometimes a full standalone just isn't needed.
Highrpmek: You're right, it's not going to generate a better fuel/timing map. Timing is ONLY altered by the knock sensor sensing knock and/or the crank sensor sensing misfire. Both of those shouldn't be happening if you are doing minor bolt-on's. A thicker HG, bad gas, extremely high temps will cause timing to be pulled out from the base map. Timing is an AS NEEDED change, there is no long term memory for timing maps. As far as fuel trim, the ECU is only going to be modifying the fuel trims for (most importantly) emissions and (a little important) driving style. These changes are very very small. However, vegas is way off with his information.
Vegas: Do you know what block learn is? When you hook up a scanner and see the long term fuel trim, what does -13 mean? Do you REALLY know how engine managment works? If you can show me you know what you're talking about, then I'll lay off, but there is just way too much bad information coming from you.
Anyway, I have HEARD that the S2000 likes richer AFRs. I can see that being possible. From an educated guess, the smaller head (Honda advertised the head being close to the size of a 16v SOHC head, because they used the gear drive to move the cams closer together for a better valve angle). Now, since the head is smaller, there is less physical volume for heat to escape from the combusion process and absorbed into the coolant. I'm going to research this more, and the spark plug thing...
versionJDM: If you want to keep things simple, or, *gasp* be different and do things your own way...sure you can pick up a Spoon/Mugen/J's ECU and use a VAFC with it. Look at it this way. AEM: adjust timing and fuel to get the car running well. JDM ECUs: fixed timing and fuel. The JDM ECU's timing curves can't be THAT far off from what you would tune into an AEM. So, you just grab a VAFC, change the AFRs to match your mods, and that works well enough. No worrying about finding an AEM EMS tuner that knows what he/she is doing, no worrying about getting the coolant gauge working with hacks or whatever, no standalone associated "problems." Don't get me wrong, the EMS is an AWESOME engine managment, but there are other ways to acomplish things and sometimes a full standalone just isn't needed.
Highrpmek: You're right, it's not going to generate a better fuel/timing map. Timing is ONLY altered by the knock sensor sensing knock and/or the crank sensor sensing misfire. Both of those shouldn't be happening if you are doing minor bolt-on's. A thicker HG, bad gas, extremely high temps will cause timing to be pulled out from the base map. Timing is an AS NEEDED change, there is no long term memory for timing maps. As far as fuel trim, the ECU is only going to be modifying the fuel trims for (most importantly) emissions and (a little important) driving style. These changes are very very small. However, vegas is way off with his information.
Vegas: Do you know what block learn is? When you hook up a scanner and see the long term fuel trim, what does -13 mean? Do you REALLY know how engine managment works? If you can show me you know what you're talking about, then I'll lay off, but there is just way too much bad information coming from you.
dude, 2nd time recert, i was doing smogs and at the carb meetings in the mid 90s, yes i know what block learn is. do you have a smog license, have you ever built an engine, trans? cmon dude. do we really wanna get into this. ive kept all the big guns under a cover. funny how everyone on here is so quick to call BS, and think they are SOOOO much smarter than others, im shocked. i try not to go around waving my flag. i try and help these folk that dont understand, to get an idea of what is going on.
have you ever seen the dyno of an RSX type S on 100 octane.... whatd you say about fixed timing? after 3 dyno pulls it picked up 12 hp. hmm, guess it can advance the timing. is this our car? nope, but its an example.
i wont argue with you and this other guy anymore, since it means so much to you guys to look like you know everything. if you are of the same ilk as myself, i will also back down. as i hate being the guy who assumed. lates
