the Official "NA Tuning" thread
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From: formerly versionJDM
i just had a nice talk with a close friend of mine, he HATES emanage. i really respect his opionion, as he really knows his stuff. after all he has a 92 hatch on the stock motor running 12.02@118 with a burnt piston, with the standard greddy kit, with his own custom ems. not AEM, not he burns his on custome chips. its his version of hondata kpro, but for d series. now we all have our own thoughts about that.
twizted...what you think about my plot....thanks for the advice. i was told to stick with my vafc tune...
yes, i know its small, but i can figure out my damn 134 in one printer!!!
twizted...what you think about my plot....thanks for the advice. i was told to stick with my vafc tune...
yes, i know its small, but i can figure out my damn 134 in one printer!!!
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From: Redondo Beach
Originally Posted by Twiztid,Apr 6 2006, 03:13 PM
As far as the car goes now , I have the head off and and In the middle of prepping him a new one . When we started on Glens project he had the head done by someone in Jersey . To make the story short , they tuliped the stock valves poorly wich intern wore the valve guides and now consumes oil . I am also not happy with the port job . So I am building him a new head as we speak . We are shooting for 300whp without stroking it.
As mention before , it was done by my shop , and tuned by Giles @ Holyroller Dyno on a Dynapack. What other sources are you looking for ? A partial list of mods was listed a few pages back .
As mention before , it was done by my shop , and tuned by Giles @ Holyroller Dyno on a Dynapack. What other sources are you looking for ? A partial list of mods was listed a few pages back .
Church Automotive tuned Karner's F22 to 300+ at the crank in stock (blueprinted) form, using just an EMS and straight pipe. It ran a full season of Honda Cup before needing any work.
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From: DFW, TX
Originally Posted by versionJDM,Apr 6 2006, 09:17 AM
i followed this when tuning my car, i wanted a broad power band....very un honda.
)Anyway, still waiting for a reply from you.
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From: DFW, TX
Originally Posted by Twiztid,Apr 6 2006, 06:24 AM
are they still using a dynojet at TorqueFreaks ?
As I have nothing bad to say about TorqueFreaks as they are great guys . But you are still limited on tuning ability with the Dynojet . If the have access to a Dynapack, use it. The Dynojet will only give you the ability to tune WOT . To take full advantage of timing you need to do held power runs . Which can be done on a DynaPack .
Its not all about peak power, you need to get the most out of the Midrange and that will get you to your peak faster. 10 extra ft lbs at say 3000rpm will be better than a car with 2 extra hp at 8500rpm .
ex . here are 2 plots , Glens NA plot and a Comptech Supercharger plot , which would you rather have
I rather have the NA car . Expeicialy if I am tracking the car . The mid power is going to smoke the supercharged car on the track . The supercharger car will have a slight advantage in the straight . But It still has to play catch up as the NA car pulled out of every corner harder .
Just trying to get you guys to look at the bigger picture of should I say plot
This is just information , use it at will . Tuning is different for every car even with the same mods . I wish it was as easy as swapping maps with each other .
ex. a car that has been over fueled and has created carbon build up on pistons domes and in the combustion chamber will be more prone to detonation and cant take as much advantage to timing than one that has been properly fueled and has no build up on it .
As for the CA guys , Yes I do have a fuel advantage over here on the East coast with up to 94 at the pump . But we are no fans of Shell , so everything that we tune is usually Mobil 93 . We have even noticed difference in brands of fuel with different formulations will make different power.
FYI , for you East coasters, we will have the dyno at the Nor' Easter event .
As I have nothing bad to say about TorqueFreaks as they are great guys . But you are still limited on tuning ability with the Dynojet . If the have access to a Dynapack, use it. The Dynojet will only give you the ability to tune WOT . To take full advantage of timing you need to do held power runs . Which can be done on a DynaPack .
Its not all about peak power, you need to get the most out of the Midrange and that will get you to your peak faster. 10 extra ft lbs at say 3000rpm will be better than a car with 2 extra hp at 8500rpm .
ex . here are 2 plots , Glens NA plot and a Comptech Supercharger plot , which would you rather have
I rather have the NA car . Expeicialy if I am tracking the car . The mid power is going to smoke the supercharged car on the track . The supercharger car will have a slight advantage in the straight . But It still has to play catch up as the NA car pulled out of every corner harder .
Just trying to get you guys to look at the bigger picture of should I say plot
This is just information , use it at will . Tuning is different for every car even with the same mods . I wish it was as easy as swapping maps with each other .
ex. a car that has been over fueled and has created carbon build up on pistons domes and in the combustion chamber will be more prone to detonation and cant take as much advantage to timing than one that has been properly fueled and has no build up on it .
As for the CA guys , Yes I do have a fuel advantage over here on the East coast with up to 94 at the pump . But we are no fans of Shell , so everything that we tune is usually Mobil 93 . We have even noticed difference in brands of fuel with different formulations will make different power.
FYI , for you East coasters, we will have the dyno at the Nor' Easter event .
anyway, the above post was meant to quote this one.
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From: PNW
Diesel - your Q was answered in that specific thread.
Louie - Why does he hate the Emanage? So no BC for you?
Twiztid - So if I don't tune for partial throttle, would the Emanage (since it's piggy back) just keep the stock timing/AFR for partial throttle and load conditions? If they aren't modified on the Emanage, why would I detonate or knock going up a hill (I know it was an extreme example, just trying to understand).
Before I jump the boat, I want to make sure some more people actually have had great luck with the Emanage. I probably can't advance more than 2 degrees of timing at WOT, and my BC ECU can do all of the AFR work. Will that timing really help? You said there is more power to be had in timing than in fuel... Also, does the stock ECU really compensate for the adjusted timing after a while??
Louie - Why does he hate the Emanage? So no BC for you?
Twiztid - So if I don't tune for partial throttle, would the Emanage (since it's piggy back) just keep the stock timing/AFR for partial throttle and load conditions? If they aren't modified on the Emanage, why would I detonate or knock going up a hill (I know it was an extreme example, just trying to understand).
Before I jump the boat, I want to make sure some more people actually have had great luck with the Emanage. I probably can't advance more than 2 degrees of timing at WOT, and my BC ECU can do all of the AFR work. Will that timing really help? You said there is more power to be had in timing than in fuel... Also, does the stock ECU really compensate for the adjusted timing after a while??
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From: Tallahassee, FL
Hey WyattH, I don't know which part of my post you don't understand so I don't know what to elaborate on, but I've been drinking and I feel like taking a stab at it .
Basically what I was saying is that if he tunes it on the street without before and after dyno charts to back it up, you could lose speed and/or power and not know it. Dyno the car after the "drive around town" tune to see what the tune actually does -- maybe even have a couple other people's dyno charts on hand so that you know what a well-tuned-S2000-with-your-mods dyno chart should look like, and best of luck.
Also for what it's worth, Ultimate Racing uses the Emanage Blue on it's turbo kit that's running 12s with what they say are no reliability issues. That should let you know what kind of headroom you're working with with that setup. The tough thing about your question is that not a lot of people use the Ultimate to tune NA street cars -- like I said earlier it will give you some added convenience, but unless you track your car a lot or take it to the strip, it's hard to tell. The only benefit I can think of for you right now that the Ultimate would supply is the advanced datalogging feature, which would greatly help when tuning the car "driving around town" since you would have hard numbers to look at when tuning. That's the major advantage that the dyno has, and while you should definately dyno tune the car before/after anyway, the datalogging would help for your midrange tune if you tune it by driving around the streets.
.Basically what I was saying is that if he tunes it on the street without before and after dyno charts to back it up, you could lose speed and/or power and not know it. Dyno the car after the "drive around town" tune to see what the tune actually does -- maybe even have a couple other people's dyno charts on hand so that you know what a well-tuned-S2000-with-your-mods dyno chart should look like, and best of luck.
Also for what it's worth, Ultimate Racing uses the Emanage Blue on it's turbo kit that's running 12s with what they say are no reliability issues. That should let you know what kind of headroom you're working with with that setup. The tough thing about your question is that not a lot of people use the Ultimate to tune NA street cars -- like I said earlier it will give you some added convenience, but unless you track your car a lot or take it to the strip, it's hard to tell. The only benefit I can think of for you right now that the Ultimate would supply is the advanced datalogging feature, which would greatly help when tuning the car "driving around town" since you would have hard numbers to look at when tuning. That's the major advantage that the dyno has, and while you should definately dyno tune the car before/after anyway, the datalogging would help for your midrange tune if you tune it by driving around the streets.
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From: Manchvegas, NH
Originally Posted by twohoos,Apr 6 2006, 11:31 PM
Ah, OK, it's a full-up NA build, and has blown up at least once. Nice, but less interesting to me.
Church Automotive tuned Karner's F22 to 300+ at the crank in stock (blueprinted) form, using just an EMS and straight pipe. It ran a full season of Honda Cup before needing any work.
Church Automotive tuned Karner's F22 to 300+ at the crank in stock (blueprinted) form, using just an EMS and straight pipe. It ran a full season of Honda Cup before needing any work.
The bottom end as we speak is on a stock crank and rods , It was sleeved and new pistons . It has not blown up , it had a oil consumption problem due to someone elses incompetence.
I never claimed it wasn't a rebuilt motor
300+ at the crank is 240+whp not a hard feat , seeing that we have a stock 05 in the group that dyno'd 220whp bone stock . And if what everyone is claiming with Shawns dyno is true , then the one he did at 235 (subtract his dyno kindness) backs it up . Or could over rate what Shawn has done . Not for me to say as I have not used Shawns dyno , But by all the hear say in this thread .
Now throw in the EMS , what did he raise the redline too? That will easily net him more power . You say blueprinted , Blueprinted means the motor was opened up . Whos to say what was and wasn't done to the motor .
Dyno ??
Just a thought
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From: MIAMI
Originally Posted by twohoos,Apr 7 2006, 06:31 AM
Ah, OK, it's a full-up NA build, and has blown up at least once. Nice, but less interesting to me.
Church Automotive tuned Karner's F22 to 300+ at the crank in stock (blueprinted) form, using just an EMS and straight pipe. It ran a full season of Honda Cup before needing any work.
Church Automotive tuned Karner's F22 to 300+ at the crank in stock (blueprinted) form, using just an EMS and straight pipe. It ran a full season of Honda Cup before needing any work.
The car made 220 whp on XS Engineer's dyno. and rev limit were raised to 8600 rpm on the 2.2L.
The engine has the competition head work job, bigger exhaust valves, springs.... and blueprinted engine
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From: Manchvegas, NH
Originally Posted by Silver9k,Apr 7 2006, 12:26 AM
Seems as though the engine is having a hard time flowing more then 270hp worth of air in N/A form. Probably a better intake manifold/head, or ITB's would help with the flow up top and keep the torque for even longer...basically just extend that line and get you close to 300whp. Or maybe the cams are running out of steam...I know they aren't factory, but you haven't mentioned (and might not) which cams they are. But anyway, I'm voicing out loud what I'd guess you would do/change to get the engine closer to the 300whp mark...that way others can hear. Also I know the Mugen header and Supersprint exhaust are also robbing some power (though I'm sure it sounds beautiful). I'm sure a "larger" header, like J's and a custom 70mm dual would open up the flow more and could sound good as well if done right. But I know it wouldn't be quite as nice even then (you make scarifices for what matters though )
Anyway, still waiting for a reply from you.
)Anyway, still waiting for a reply from you.
Yes you are dead on ,And your opinion is correct
If I can get the end of the power band up ,300whp should be no problem . The problem lies in the head not the header and exhaust I believe ( he owned the header and exhaust 2 years before the build He is one of the first owner and more than half of the stuff that is avalible now was not then .). The guy that ported the head only made a bunch of tool marks on the intake side ( which there is nothing much you can do to the intake side but debur and smooth things out ,there is nothing to remove) .He never touched the exhaust side . Where the exhaust side port is 4+mm smaller just on the width than the factory header .
So once I finish the new head we will see what it does to the top end power . I might have to sacrifice some lowend torque to do it though . I also have cam timing to play with
