The simple answer to this is to just exclude the CR or maybe the CR Delete. I can think of a couple of factory prepped cars are deemed SP cars out of the gate. I'm not saying that I am going to write a letter stating that, but it is the simplest answer. While they are cleaning up the ST rule set, why not just exclude types of cars?

After watching Geoff's video from Toledo and seeing how he dug out of that left hander hole before the big right hand sweeper to the finish, I saw how out powered my AP1 was/is. Of course, he would likely still kick my @$$ if he drove my car, but geesh, if I didn't downshift to 1st, I would still be bogging around that turn. So, if they address this power advantage, I will be happy. I and maybe with a few others' help, I will find away to hide a hooker in each CR's trunk to address the weight advantage.

OK... if it is not obvious, I am not a rules kinda guy, so I am now going to run away from this topic in this thread.

-D

 

I never "pull out"

 

Do you know how upset the CR owners would be if they banned the CR from str. I guess it's sort-of like people crying about the cr in B-stock. Honda must of made one hell of a car when they released the CR.

I'm not in this, I just hope you all resolve it while considering both sides of the story. Even if 100 people wrote a letter today it would take 2 years before it ever changed.

 

ummmm,wow. Where do I accuse you of intentionally wanting an unfair advantage? Did you not notice the smiley faces I had in the post? Should I put a smiley face after every word? Lighten up dude. Wow, I "lost touch with the reality?" Really? If this is such a "driver's race," as you call it, then why are you bothering to modify your CR for STR? I mean, it's all the driver right? So changing parts on your car will have little affect right? Cuz it's all about the driver, right? If there is anyone that's "lost touch with reality," I think you need to take a hard look at yourself. When you're at Nationals, take a look at other classes and what they do for weight savings. These are guys that have been doing it for a lot longer than you or I. I guess all these years they didn't have to do any of it, could have left their cars perfectly stock, and just run a "driver's race." Oh brother.

Really? You sure about that? I don't even know why you're even mentioning this, but as long as you are, I guess he "absolutely crushed the STR field," no wait, looking at day 1 results, I beat his RAW time with my run which was CLEAN. His cleanest time was 1.5 seconds slower than me. Yes, he really "crushed" my times. And for day two, I'm sitting on a decent lead, so all I care about is protecting it. I'm not going to go swinging for the fences like he did on day two.

And if you really want to use him as a reference, he was in a CR, the same CR that has won 3 other Tours, and that's without Collett's awesome driving (I'm not being sarcastic, he really is a great driver). If CRs keep blowing away the competition, driver or not, do you really think everyone in STR that doesn't have a CR is gonna have the same enthusiasm they do now, 2-3 years down the road?

I'm getting sick of trying to help out the S2k community. If another CR stomping ground is what you guys want, so be it. I'm not even gonna bother with the ECU letter. At this point, this is all a waste of my time. You guys want to see how dominant a CR can be? So be it.

James

 

If you have too much slip angle on either end you will notice it as under steer (too much front slip angle) or over steer (too much rear slip angle). This could be attributed to more or less camber on one end than the other. Camber could be adjusted to get balanced handling, but I would be adjusting camber for maximum lateral grip while taking braking and acceleration into account. You don't want to compromise those too much.

I saw a guy add more front camber an an MX-5 at an event when it was pushing too much and it did help, but I question why they did not have camber adjusted for maximum grip to begin with?

Also remember that camber is dynamic and it is gained (you get more)as the suspension compresses.

 

So in accordance to above, increasing front camber would increase oversteer by increasing rear slip angle relative to the front? Am I understanding that right?

I never really thought of camber in terms of slip angle. Instead I always just understood it as giving more grip to that side of the car under load.

 

James, I 100% agree with you, just so you know. I think it's really unfortunate that they included the CR delete in the eligible cars, because really the CR (especially the delete) does not meet the intent of the street touring class. Especially since it's so good in B stock, it doesn't need another class. Now we're stuck in the situation of a lot of people having prepped the car already so you can't exclude it.

I think the only way to keep this class going with the momentum it has had is to ballast the CR, at least the delete model. Marc's argument about the top is valid, but that argument doesn't work for ballast. I'm not interested in bringing the CR behind other AP2's, but getting it clearly into the range of driver noise erring on the side of still being lighter is fine. I don't know, something like 40 lbs for nondelete and 60 lbs for delete? Maybe just a simple "run with the top on or ballast with 50 lbs" Not sure exactly how much the top weighs. We'd have to get more data. And of course for local events people wouldn't have to enforce the rule similar to the wings rule so it wouldn't be a big deal there.

I'm tempted to write a letter and probably will, but somehow it doesn't seem like other people seem to care so not sure how much support it would get.

And yes, if the rules stay the same I will continue driving my base AP2 and I will not blame the CR's lighter weight for why it beats me if it does, and I won't say anything or make excuses, but if I get beaten by a tenth or something by a CR, sure as hell I'll be thinking it was all car.

 

3.5% Total car weight. That's what we're talking about here. In the noise? Maybe, maybe not.

I find all this talk about excluding the CR or ballasting it to be ridiculous.... especially in STR. In Stock, I can see an argument for exclusion based on production numbers and the many advantages it has over a regular S2000 but in STR, you can eliminate all of the advantages besides a bit of weight. There is just no way any of this talk about specifically treating one model of a specific car with a special rule set is going to come to fruition. Auto-x classing and rules has to be generic enough to not be short sighted and to allow for some rules stability while accepting new models.

For fun, take a look at ST where the weight differences between the 89 Japanese cars and the 90-91 cars is as much as 4.5% of total weight and notice that there are many national races where the heavier car has won when raced against a stout field including past national champions. For power, Tim Smith's ST civic is probably one of the least powerful cars in the class by as much as 15hp on some guys, that's a 12.5% deficiency, and his car has taken 2 National Championships and continues to win.

I just think people are making too much out of the differences in these S2000s. You only get 3 runs a day. Everybody is nervous. To think that your driving is so good that you got 97% out of the car is foolish... or if it that good, you are winning so you don't care that your car has less power or weighs more.

For an example of what I'm talking about: http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets3.html

 

I'm with you 100%. I am also going to have almost the worst car for the class if the new ECU rules go through (which I wrote in favor of). Does 100 lbs make a difference? Sure. But to be talking about this to this extent is pointless. Nothing is going to change at this point. I think we just need to focus on getting the ECU rules changed to make it fair for everyone power wise. A lot of this weight is made up by the driver too. Some of us are larger than others lets not forget.

 

Colin, I'm confused. Why would you have the worst car with the new ECU rule? Why wouldn't you be able to use Flash Pro?